Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

3 Posts
Feb 13, 2009 10:45 pm
Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Hi Alt E Forums,

I've searched and called on solar consultants on and off over the last few months but get discouraged because I can't seem to get close to a solution will do what I want and will fit in my budget.  The 4 or 5 people I've talked to are very nice and very helpful but the back of the envelope cost estimate seems to fall in the $60k to $100k range, which is way out of our budget. 

The system would be for my parents and I think they'll invest $10,000 or so in a system (maybe $20k if I can convince them they'll definitely get rebates).  One of their neighbors has a system that he has pieced together over the years with used equipment from here and there and it does everything we would want it to do.  Although he has hundreds of hours invested, he makes it sound like he only has a feew thousand dollars invested.  Although we're not as handy as he is, I'm struggling with the idea of paying $60,000 to buy the same thing he got for a few thousand.  I would prefer to get a more dependable and efficient and new system, but if I can't do it for $10 - $20k, I might just ask the neighbor if we can pay him to build a junker.

•   Historical usage for the house/garage is as follows:

year        avg kWh/day   avg kWh/mth   avg kWh/yr
1996        48.79              1,463.7      17,808.35
1997        56.97              1,709.1      20,794.05
1998        57.03              1,710.9      20,815.95

•   From what I’ve read, it’s easier to be either on-grid or off-grid.  But I want to have both.  I want to typically be on grid and use AltE as a supplement, but I also want the ability to be fully independent, in case the world falls apart for a while and there is no grid.  While being off-grid, we wouldn't need to be able to power the entire house, but it would be nice to know we have power for the well pump, the t.v., the oven and few lights here and there.  From what I can tell on the web, we need a “transfer switch” to be able to switch back and forth from on-grid to off-grid.  I think I read somewhere that some of the inverters have the transfer switch built in, but I don’t know if it’s more efficient and cost effective to have a separate transfer switch or one that’s built in to the inverter.

•   My parents live in the CA desert halfway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.  It’s hot in the summer and also has great wind.  Ideally, we could take advantage by having a hybrid system with both solar and wind.

•   Not absolutely necessary, but would be cool if there was also a way to hook up a generator to send power to the batteries/inverter.  Worst case, if we’re off-grid and there is no sun and no wind, then we could fire up the generator. If this is WAY more expensive, we would probably skip it.

•   Would be cool to have a scalable system where we could simply install and plug in extra solar panels and extra batteries, in the future, if we needed a bigger system, as opposed to having to re-engineer the whole thing and waste the money we already spent.

•   We could do alot of the install work (solar panels and turbine tower) but would probably need an electrician or specialist to help with the wiring and complicated stuff.

Questions are as follows:

-Are the $60k and $100k estimates realistic?  Or are they opportunistic?

-Am I asking for the system to do too much, which is making it more expensive than it needs to be?

-Should I find one company who will sell me the equipment and also do the install and also help me figure out rebates?  Or, should I be buying the equip one place, hiring someone else to install it, and figuring out rebates on my own?

Sorry for the long post.  Any recommendations would be most appreciated.
 
Feb 14, 2009 07:10 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Given the 57 kWh and the location of "the CA desert halfway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas."
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/
This site tells me that what you can hope for is 6 kWh's per square meter per day. What this means is, how much solar radiation expressed in the form of wattage is striking our Earth from our Sun.
I phrase this as, the number of hours of full rated output of a PV module per day because in reality, a PV module does not convert that 1000 watts per meter into 1000 watts of usable electricity by 100%. Its more likely to be only by 10%. In other words. A 100 watt PV module will measure approximately 1 square meter and if I had a 100 watt rated PV module there, then that would be .6 kWh's per day averaged out over the year. 
This may not be the most scientifically agreed upon way, but its a fair enough assessment in my book. Anything else in my opinion is just picking nits. Take it or leave it.

Now that that unpleasantness is out of the way. You gave us 57 avg.kWh./day.
Simply divide 57 by 6 and ta-da! we have the need for nothing less than a 9.5 kilowatt PV array. Even at U.S. $4.00 per watt not installed, still in the box, thats an amazing U.S. $38,000.

Renewable Energies is not a "cheaper way out." Its just another way of enabling ourselves. If you want to save some real money, learn to live without electricity. The entire human race lived without electricity for thousands of years. Its only been in the last 100 years that we have begun to believe that we cannot live without electricity. Somebodies laughing all the way to the bank. Was it P.T.Barnum that said, "Theres a fool born every minute."?
"Would you walk away from a fool and his money?" Beatles lyrics.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/esr_sum.html
If you jump down to the last paragraph  you'll see the figure $343.7 billion. RE wants a piece of that.
 
Feb 15, 2009 05:00 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

I apologize to you Andy. I did not mean that you are a fool personally. What I meant is that I think the human race is being foolish for allowing itself to become addicted to electricity and other forms of energy and I include myself in that foolishness.

Lets explore that $38,000 stack of PV modules still in their boxes a little more. If I am not mistaken, the national average that is payed per residential kWh for grid supplied electricity is $0.0915 (cents). You stated a monthly average of 1,711 kWh's. If we multiply 0.0915 times 1711 then bing bang boom we have a monthly bill of $157.00, now we can take that $38,000 and divide it by $157.00 and (nothing up my sleeves) presto change-o we have a 20 year pay back for that stack of PV modules still in their boxes.

I think that, for the sake of fairness, I should add here that PV has gotten a little better over the years. There was a time (late 70's) when a 64 watt module with no frame, no J-box or MC cables, and only a one year warranty sold on the open market for between $400. to $500.. Now we can get a 205 watt module with a frame and, MC cables and, a 20 year power output warranty for between $1,100 to $1,200..
Lets see that a difference of about $2. to $3. per rated watt less and the aluminum frame and the 20 year warranty.

Heres a few fun facts. The amount of electricity produced World wide for one year is 18,000,000,000,000 kWh's.
Wow! At $0.09 cents per kWh thats $1,620,000,000,000.
I can start to see why RE wants a bigger slice of that pie. I think RE produces only about 4% of that world wide.
Thats only $64,800,000,000. a year.
Poor things.
 
15 Posts
Feb 15, 2009 03:57 pm
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Evergreen blems perform as good as any other for a lot less.
http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=61
Regards,Dennis
 
33 Posts
Feb 18, 2009 06:05 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Spend the money on preparing the house for solar. You should be able to get power usage down below 1200 to 1000kw per month for a family of 4 easily by switching over to solar hot water heating. In your area that would probably involve sticking the cold water inlet pipe to water tank out in the sun with a large aluminum heat sink on it. LOL

Double or triple pane windows with light tint film on them. R20 to 28 attic insulation. Stiff panel insulation mounted on underside of attic roof but you want to keep it to R4 to r6 to keep shingles from curling up and melting. Several solar powered attic vents. Heavy air conditioning duct insulation. Attic treatment is critical as you get closer to equator or get further removed from it and is very critical in desert and cold climate environments.

If you have a nice refrigerator you can "mod" it. Cut some stiff foam insulation with reflective coatings on both sides and lightly bond them to encase the refigerator. You can usually get the stiff foam to make a nearly seamless encasement between the boxes and the doors. Then you can finish it off with a nicely colored or matching counter covering material. If your counters are in the way cut them or buy a slightly smaller refrigerator. This modification alone will SHOCK you on power usage as well as making your home environment wonderfully calm and quiet as you won't have a refrigerator whirring away in your ear every 20 minutes if your kitchen is open to another room. Don't get too carried away with this unless you keep AC at around 80 to 84 farenheit as your refrigerator will turn into a freezer on it's warmest setting. This will also make your refrigerator last 4 to 5 times longer as it won't be operating all the time, and if you keep a few quarts of frozen water bottles in freezer you can lose your power for days before anything even gets from the 6 to 8 degrees it will now run. You can then mod it to a 24 or 48 volt dc motor of about 1/2 to 1/3 the power rating of the AC one if you switch over to solar. Either way your refrigerator will go from using 5 to 6 kw per day to around 2kw. And in event of extended power outage on generator it makes managing things much easier and allows you to use a much smaller generator.

Install massive amounts of LED lights in track lighting or tons of overhead lighting receptacles. LED lights are not very powerful but they run for years without replacing and keep alot of heat out of house.

Use efficient electronics. Don't use 400 watt computer when a 120 watt one will run things almost as well. Don't use 20 percent efficiency stereo amps when a 90 percent efficiency class T amp will do better. Don't use 52 inch plasma screen when a 32 inch LCD is just as nice and uses 1/2 the power.

These things alone will make the house cozy. As it won't need nearly as much external energy involvement. You don't have to worry about turning off lights to save power. Etc etc. When you're down to 300 kw a month for normal things and the rest for AC/Heat then you can think about solar power.
« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2009 06:50 am by Jonathan Winters »
 
3 Posts
Feb 23, 2009 03:33 pm
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Thanks Thomas for your reply.  Gave me alot to think about
 
3 Posts
Feb 23, 2009 03:35 pm
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Thanks also for your response Jonathan.  I guess the consensus is that we need to become more conservative before we're candidates for solar.  Good to know.  Thanks!
 
33 Posts
Feb 26, 2009 02:12 pm
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Thanks also for your response Jonathan.  I guess the consensus is that we need to become more conservative before we're candidates for solar.  Good to know.  Thanks!

It's also a good idea to do alot of searching on weather in your area. There are many good databases that go back at least 40 years plus that can tell you how many days of sunshine you will have how many days of cloudy rainy weather and how many partial cloudy days you can have. Then you can check average wind speeds and what those wind speeds are for what months. It's almost impossible to have a huge energy solar system unless you are in dessert with 260 plus pure sunshine days. But most areas will have good wind when they are very cloudy and good wind in winter times when you need more energy for heating.

90 percent of US from the studying I've done has to have about 2k worth of panels and get a good 4 to 8k killowatts from wind every year to really put big dent in our energy usage which leaves a big dent in the wind market. The tiny popular ones aren't much good and the larger more serious ones are just too big for most peoples needs. Probably needs to run around 6 to 8 thousand for solar system and 6 to 8 thousand for wind. Solar's close wind is either too little or too much.

http://www.eaglecoatings.net/

But this stuff is great for house preparations too. Spraying this on underside of roof and outside of roof in areas you don't plan to mount panels would help a ton. And if you can do it clean up floor of attic and spray it before laying back down insulation. But most fair weather zones or hot weather zone houses don't even have any insulation in attic. I've used alot of ceramic and heat absorbing/radiating coatings on engines and computer heat sinks they work really fantastic but at the time they were nothing compared to those eagle coatings. So it looks like house preparation will be fairly cheap and easy if people employ these coatings more because they work so much better than insulating barrier strategies.

Oh one more thing. I gave you wrong numbers on fridge. Meant to say you can bring it down from 50 to 60 kwatts per month down to 20 kwatts per month. I work with so many numbers hard for me to keep them straight half the time.
« Last Edit: Feb 26, 2009 02:26 pm by Jonathan Winters »
 
19 Posts
Feb 26, 2009 11:55 pm
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

two things that can be pushing up your usage is the oven and the hw heater.

consider propane or gas oven and an on demand 19 gal 1500 watt hw heater from lowes.

as far as a/c you might consider evap cooler as a 5000 cfm will use about 600 watts an hour.

check out solarcity.com;

http://www.solarcity.com/solarlease/SolarCitySolar101.aspx

 they lease solar systems in Calif. for as low as 67 bucks a month providing they can retain all rebates.
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2009 12:02 am by William Clark »
 
19 Posts
Feb 27, 2009 12:09 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Generator:

Most of the good systems provide for a generator input; mainly because you want to be able to maintain a 80 percent charge in your batteries or a specific gravity reading of 1250 to 1300;

On cloudy days and/or heavy electrical usage the batts. will need charging; if you are on grid the grid can charge up the batts.�  Generators are a lose/lose situation: for example, my genset is 1000cc motor and 15KW; cost 2800 bucks, rated only for 3000 hours, uses 1.6 gallons of gas per hour under HALF load.�  In our desert heat an air cooled genset such as mine has a short life.�  I was thinking about hooking up its own a/c this summer to cool intake air.

My first genset cost 4200 and lasted 1250 hours or about 3 years.�  they want 95 bucks an hour to work on it IF you take it to them...it weighs 400 lbs and not on wheels.�  My new one is on wheels and runs on gas, natural gas and propane.�  So far I like it.�  Central Maine Diesel is where I got it, no tax and no freight:www.generatorsales.com � There is a place in Lake Havasu, AZ: http://www.norwall.com/ that has the same one for about 1900 without conversion set up.�  Runs just on gas.
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2009 12:45 am by William Clark »
 
19 Posts
Feb 27, 2009 12:12 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Most of the systems (mine is Outback MX and FX) allow you to add panels, controllers, and batteries to augment your system without re-inventing existing system.
For example, I started with 8 batts and 10 Kyocera 125 panels; then added 16 batts and another 10 panels; then added just 8 130 panels and another controller.
 
19 Posts
Feb 27, 2009 12:23 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

here in AZ, to get the rebate, you have to have an installer approved by the Electric Company to get your rebate.

Dealing with one vendor/installer is best, though more expensive because you get the v/i to back up his work and provide warranty work and he cannot say, " well you bought this part of the system elsewhere and it is not my responsibility".  So the onus is all on one company.

60 to 100K is not out of sight for what you want the system to do.  You could get by much cheaper if you scaled down the requirements of elec. usage.

I spent 40K with American Solar Electric here in Phoenix for a 3500 watt system.  I am off grid as APS wants 425000 to string elect to my nogottarancho.  we use a propane for cooking some things and a lot of electric cookers for most things.  I do have two converters so that I can pump well water using 220 volts.  this is working out very well.  I use about 1200 watts for the well pump.
 
19 Posts
Feb 27, 2009 12:30 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

Preparing the house for lower elec. consumption is a great idea as one of the posters proposed.  I blew in tons of attic insulation..R49 in attic now, furred out and insulated walls, some are 18 inches thick now, foamed the semi flat roof and painted it white...will be installing a fireplace insert in the future.  Use propane heaters when absolutely necessary.

Use electric space heaters on occasion.
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2009 12:44 am by William Clark »
 
19 Posts
Feb 27, 2009 11:43 am
Re: Trying to Figure Out How to Get Started

wind generation:

I have a new wind generator that I bought and never even took out of package. Would sell for half price; email me if interested at zzbill39 @ hughes.net
 

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