# Steve Rays's posts

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 01:03 pm

#1 -

I'm out ... have a good day everyone!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 12:59 pm

#2 -

You lack a thorough understanding of how solid state inverters work!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 12:44 pm

#3 -

"When a 120V device draws 10 amps of current it is using 1200 Watts of Power."

Exactly!!

And when it does it for 1 hour it is 1.2 kilowatt hours!

You're getting there!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 12:03 pm

#4 -

14 - 16 an appropriate gage at 12 - 40 volts at no more than 20 amps.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 11:39 am

#5 -

"Well then, how long would it take to charge the battery."

3 - 5 hours of moderate wind (8 - 12 mph) in most cases!

"Also if you understand batteries, then a 100 amp-hr battery will truly only provide 80 amp-hrs if properly discharged and maintained, in order for long life and for it to be continually recharged."

Not quite true with AGM's but again, that is one of the reasons we advertise 10 kilowatt hours and not 12!

Example:

My golf cart has 6 6 volt batteries making a 36 volt system.

8 hours on the charger lets me play 54 holes of golf or, almost 15 hours of use at a tremendous draw.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 11:11 am

#6 -

Except that we are not talking about constant wind not are we talking about a 10 kilowatt hour stream.

What we advertise and sell is a system that is predicated around a fully charged deep cycle 100 amp hour battery.

How long it takes to charge that battery and what that battery can deliver once charged is the essence of our system.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 10:46 am

#7 -

"It was silly of me to miss that the first time.

John"
________________________

Agreed!

A 100 amp hour battery works this way:

1) It can deliver 1 amp for 100 hours or 10 amps for 10 hours. Ergo the "100 amp hour" rating!

2) Our inverter is a 1200 watt inverter at 120 volts.
This is 10 amps!!

3) The inverter draws its 1200 watts (10 amps) from the battery as it is being used.

4) If it does this for one hour it is 1.2 kilowatt hours.

5) If it does it for 10 hours it is 12 kilowatt hours!

We advertise 10 kilowatt hours (instead of 12) each time the battery is fully charged because the inverter does consume some power doing its job.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 10:37 am

#8 -

The different batteries and how they work!

1) Car batteries:

These are for short term high amp output to turn your cars engine over to start it. When your engine starts your cars alternator replaces that used current fast because you may just drive 2 miles and shut the car off to get gas and than have to restart it.

If your car has trouble starting the battery will die with moments.

A standard battery charger replicates your cars alternator and charges the battery up quick again (although not as quick as your alternator;

*** Not suited for deep cycle use and a standard battery charger will destroy deep cycle batteries ***

2) Marine or RV batteries:

These are actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries with most be much closer to car or starting batteries.

Not really true deep cycle and have a top charging voltage of 15.5 volts.

*** Not suited for E2D’s high voltage that will destroy them. ***

3) Deep cycle:

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type.

*** Suitable for most applications that have a maximum charge voltage of 15.5 volts ***

*** Not suitable for E2D’s High Voltage output as it will destroy the battery ***

4) AGM Deep cycle:

AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries
A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse.  These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:

Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries “HAVE NO” charge or discharge current limits.

*** The Only Battery That Can Be Safely Used With The E2D Version 3 1200 Series!!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 3, 2007 10:11 am

#9 -
I dont mind educating you at all John.

Let's start with what a 100 amp hour deep cycle battery can deliver.

Do you know what one it is and what it can deliver?

Troy, I suspect you are doing something wrong again. In light winds we fried both taillights and headlights. Don't worry we will figure it out. You dont have your meter hooked up while trying the light bulb test do you?

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 2, 2007 08:37 pm

#10 -

"Please don't delete the Stevie alias that we all know and love. But if you have to then my advice to him is get a new Hotmail address and create another alias. I just checked and the alias "Madison Priest" is available for him. -- John"

Geeze Nick ... try to play fair here or people will question your neutrality!

I dont want to have to hide my ip!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Dec 2, 2007 08:25 pm

#11 -

Hey Troy,

How many 12 volt taillight bulbs have you fried so far?

When you have a decent wind and prop speed try a headlight instead ... but, you'll fry that too after about 5 seconds.

***

Nathan, thanks for the input but we are not advertising or selling a 10kwh stream. We are advertising and selling a system that is battery based and when that battery (typ 100ah deep cycle agm type) is charged it can, based on its own characteristics through our inverter deliver 10 hours of 10 amps. "Before the charging begins anew"!

Get it?

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 06:29 pm

#12 -

"P.S. In the case above, you should quote facts and references as to the amps required to make the spark shown."

It's the knowledge of being an engineer for 28 years in r&d Nick!

Try getting a dime cell to spark ... they have about 200 ma.

Or a 9 v transistor battery ... it will give one small spark and die.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 06:19 pm

#13 -

Geeeze Nick!

I thought I was referring something helpful!

I'll be more mindful of your concerns in the future.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 05:54 pm

#14 -

Okay!

I don't mind educating you but John is more of a challenge;)

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 05:44 pm

#15 -

Come now John ... do you really think 200 ma would create the kind of spark he has already acknowledged seeing?

I can recommend ITT. They have student loans available and job placement assistance.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 05:41 pm

#16 -

"If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.***

*** But not at anything over 4 - 5 amps though!

"Will a Sears 2/8 amp 12V home battery charger really cause more damage than a device producing more than 20 amps at 48V when placed across the terminals of a 12V battery?"

No ... that's why he needs the controller.

But again, you cannot charge a deep cycle battery with a standard 12 volt car battery charger without destroying the battery..

And it's you who seems to running around in circles John. Tell us more about how it takes 4000 watts to charge the battery?

Nick ... is the acceptable?

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 04:37 pm

#17 -

Troy,

What kind? Make and model?

If you are not using a deep cycle battery (an appropriate one) you cannot charge it.

Attempting to charge with a standard car battery charger (way higher charge rate than a deep cycle can handle) has probably destroyed them.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 04:20 pm

#18 -

Troy,

A few issues here:

1) You cannot charge a deep cycle battery with a standard battery charger without damaging the battery.

2) A simple hydrometer test (as done by your battery guy) will not tell you if the battery is good ... as in it can take a charge.

3) Do you have deep cycle batteries? What kind ... make and model?

Because again, either the batteries were destroyed before you hooked up the controller of they were destroyed by using a normal car battery charger.

The spark is telling you it is creating electricity (free) so the only thing it can be is the battery!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 04:01 pm

#19 -

Troy,

You have an AC amp meter not a DC amp meter.

Most inexpensive meters do not have a dc option.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 03:36 pm

#20 -

"I have done like Steve says and touched the wires together and it sparks. As I said if you put a meter on the turbine while it is free spinning it will put out 40v in 20+ wind."

Troy ... there is something wrong. You wouldn't be able to see a spark at all if it were only an amp or two.

And even if were just that amp or two it would still charge your battery ... it would just take longer. You said it was over a period of six days in good wind. Even at 1 amp it would/should have charged that battery.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 03:31 pm

#21 -
"-- modification, after noticing last post -- thanks regarding controller  -- is that for the wind or solar?  if for wind, does that mean it is c series acting as diversion load controller?  if so is diversion load available?  -- if for solar also c series - and are there specs available for module?  thanks"

The solar panel provided varies in size (2-5 watts) and has other functions besides providing a safe float level charge to the battery.

Yes, it is the c series.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 03:25 pm

#22 -
"If the voltage output increases as wind speed increases, can you explain where the voltage control is taking place so that Troy does not end up putting 48V across his 12V battery?

John"

*** If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.

Another thing John, AGM's have a totally different spec sheet than normal deep cycle batteries to such an extent that you can totally deplete them without harm and even freeze them without harm.

Educating you is fun ...

FYI: Your cars alternator does not put out 12 volts in an open circuit. It puts out 30 something and you cars battery absorbs it.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 03:20 pm

#23 -

"Steve,

I don't see any charge controller included in your system. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that there was some sort of voltage regulator build into the DC generator and thus there was no need to have a charge controller."

*** The new E2D version 3 does require a charge controller and all of our recent customers have been informed of this. Troy was also notified of this. The website will reflect this when complete.

The previous versions did a have simple controller built in.

We are in the process of building our own (available in Jan) but have been recommending xantrex recently.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 03:15 pm

#24 -
"1. A 100ah battery might well provide 10 amps for 10 hours, but after a few charges and discharges it would no longer be of any use. For deep-cycle batteries, a discharge of 50% is the maximum that is recommended if you expect the battery to last more than 2 or 3 years."

*** No inverter will allow the battery to totally discharge and most, like ours shuts down at 11 volts.***

"2. Here is a quote directly from the freetricity.com website:
"3 to 5 = 10 x 10
Three to Five Hours of Wind Gives you ...
Ten Hours at 10 Amps = 10 Kilowatt Hours"

The clear implication there is that the E2D will generate 10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity in 3 to 5 hours."

*** 10 hours at 10 amps is 10 kilowatt hours!

10 amps x 120 volts = 1200 watts or 1.2 kilowatts. 10 hours of this is 12 kilowatt hours.

We state 10 because of the inverters power consumption and the fact that we do not totally discharge the battery.

"Another point worth mentioning is that power rating of a renewable energy system is the amount of energy produced by the renewable energy source, and NOT the rating of the inverter."

*** That's not true (again) as we advertise and sell a system!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 02:31 pm

#25 -
Briefly ... very very briefly touch the two wires together for the spark test.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 02:29 pm

#26 -
Troy,

Try the simple spark test! While the prop is spinning briefly touch the wires coming out of the system ... very very briefly.

If you see a spark it is working. You wouldn't see any spark under 10 amps.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 01:41 pm

#27 -

It is also important to note that once a typical 100 amp hour battery is charged it will provide the user, through our 1200 watt inverter approx 10 hours of power at 10 amps. Ergo the 1200 watt system.

You wont get 12 (actual calculated hours) hours because the inverter uses some energy to do its job!

E2D version 3 was just released and our website is currently going through the necessary changes and updates that will provide the consumer more detailed information including a detailed pictorial of a complete installed system with the manual transfer switch.

Also, the Freetricity wind turbine challenge will now be held March 15th at the Pechanga Resort and Casino in Temecula California.

I hope to see the Alternative Energy Stores Reps there as well as reps from all manufacturers ... although I seriously doubt anyone will have the guts to show up and challenge us!

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 01:27 pm

#28 -
Our E2D 1200 watt system is just that. A system!

The system is built around the battery. That battery as with all deep cycle batteries has to be charged at an appropriate and safe rate.

Because we cannot be certain that all customers will use the proper AGM type batteries we charge the battery at a rate that is safe for all deep cycle batteries. Halfway between a C/4 and C/5 charge rate minus 20% (for safety).

C/4 is the 20 hour rate divided by 4 (although we are almost to C/5). In a 100 amp hour deep cycle battery this would be approximately 22 amps minus the 20% or 18 - 20amps.

Another interesting fact regarding deep cycle batteries is when they are new that they will not fully charge until the batteries have been cycled 20 - 30 times (cycled = being charged and discharged).

Because of this it is not uncommon to see fully charged voltages of around 12.0 - 12.3 (out of a seasoned batteries 12.8 volts) the first several charge cycles.

E2D puts out (and yes John voltage does matter) around 10 amps at 21 volts at 8 - 10 mph and its max of about 48 volts at 24 amps at about 20 mph.

We have the lowest starting viable wind speed and the highest output of any manufacturer un 25 mph.

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Nov 30, 2007 01:05 pm

#29 -
"I suspect that the current (I) output from your windmill at 13V is in the milliamp range, ie less than 1 amp, and is not likely to give a significant charge to a battery over a few hours. However, I would be interested in hearing what your reading for current and hence total power produced is as my initial guess at what power it would produce was in the 5 to 10 watt range. That would give you a current (I) reading of around 0.5 amps.

John Bodden"

LOFL

I see the alternative energy stores master of misinformation is back!! This fool thinks it takes 4000 watts to charge a battery!!!

And FYI my ignorant friend: You cannot put 60 amps into a deep cycle battery at once. Our system charges at a safe and appropriate C/4 charge rate.

Keep in mind folks, this fool has been wrong about everything he has said about us and E2D!

- Ask a fool a question and you'll get a foolish answer. -

#### Posted by Steve Rays on Sep 25, 2007 08:12 pm

#30 -

How many watts at what voltage are you looking for?

If you are looking for 25 - 50 watts @ 12VDC an auto blower fan motor (permanent magnet) will suffice at very low drag.

They are also rated at a very low RPM (usually around 1200). You may have to gear up your prop, perhaps 4 to 1 to easily reach the desired output (max being around the 13 volts you are looking for if battery charging).

Google robotic gears for that gear set info.

When you're looking for something much more substantial please visit www.freetricity.com.

Thank you.

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