Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

4 Posts
Mar 28, 2008 04:13 am
Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

Proposed PV Installation with Sharp or Sanyo modules:

Tracker: Wattsun AZ-225 Tracker
Controller: Outback MX60 or FLEXmax 80
Combiner Box: Outback Pspv
Wire Run: 45m (150 feet)!
Inverter: Xantrex SW3048E
Battery Bank: 48 volts

I feel confused about Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages when determining wire size. Are the following calculations correct with regards to the array strings and wire sizing?

Would all or any of these arrangements be suitable for an Outback MX60 or FLEXmax 80 and which would you advise in this case? If it's the FLEXmax 80 then why?

The Wattsun AZ-225 Tracker can mount 16 Sanyos and 16 Sharps but is this the only way you can arrange these modules to work with an Outback MX60 or FLEXmax 80?

Modules: 16, Sharp NT-175U1, 175 W STC, 35.4 Vpm, 4.95A Ipm, 44.4 Voc, 5.4A Isc
Array: Eight  2-module series string, 2,800 W STC total, 70.8Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 39.6) / (2% x 70.Cool x 1.1 = 46.15mm2, requires #0 AWG!

Modules: 15, Sharp NT-175U1, 175 W STC, 35.4 Vpm, 4.95A Ipm, 44.4 Voc, 5.4A Isc
Array: Five  3-module series string, 2,625 W STC total, 106.2 Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 24.75) / (2% x 106.2) x 1.1 = 19.23mm2, requires #4 AWG

Modules: 16, Sanyo HIP-180BA3, 180 W STC, 54 Vpm, 3.33A Ipm, 66.4 Voc, 3.65A Isc
Array: Eight 2-module series string, 2,880 W STC total, 108 Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 26.64) / (2% x 108) x 1.1 = 20.35mm2, requires #4 AWG

Modules: 16, Sanyo HIP-190BA3, 190 W STC,  54.8Vpm, 3.5A Ipm, 67.5 Voc, 3.8A Isc
Array: Eight 2-module series string, 3,040 W STC total,  109.6Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 28) / (2% x 109.6) x 1.1 = 21.08mm2, requires #2 AWG! or 25mm2 metric

Modules: 16, Sanyo HIP-200BA3, 200 W STC, 55.8 Vpm, 3.6A Ipm, 68.7 Voc, 3.8A Isc
Array: Eight 2-module series string, 3,200 W STC total, 111.6 Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 28.Cool / (2% x 111.6) x 1.1 = 21.29mm2, requires #2 AWG! or 25mm2 metric

How many and what size DC breakers would be required with the Outback Pspv combiner box with these different string sizes?

Also after searching the Internet I don't seam to be able to find many suppliers for PVC insulated 2 core shielded direct burial cable except here www.grainger.com. Any suggestions and help much appreciated thanks.

Hmm, I don't know why the "point eight" is displayed as a smiley face? Ha

Regards,
Simon.
 
76 Posts
Mar 28, 2008 10:07 am
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

...
Also after searching the Internet I don't seam to be able to find many suppliers for PVC insulated 2 core shielded direct burial cable except here www.grainger.com. Any suggestions and help much appreciated thanks.
...
Regards,
Simon.

Have you tried www.mcmaster.com (McMaster-Carr) ?
 
578 Posts
Mar 28, 2008 12:42 pm
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

sanyo modules on 48v systems generally do not work because they are meant for grid tie and are not 48v nominal.  include hot days and any voltage drop, and the system will not charge batteries.  for 48v systems, i would recommend using a 48v nominal (4 12v in series or 2 24v in series) setup or a 54v nominal setup (3 18v modules in series).  I have nothing against sanyo, we have them on our roof, but we have seen this type of design fail to work because the vmp of the sanyo is not enough for 48v battery banks especially in summer months.

hope that helps,

james
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4 Posts
Mar 28, 2008 06:20 pm
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

Thanks for the reply! Yes I would like to use a 48 V nominal setup with the sharp modules. I presume my calculations are correct then or you would have said so? But with the Sharps the #0 AWG cable required in my opinion is just too large to run 150 feet!
What about a 72 V nominal setup? The Wattsun AZ-225 Tracker can mount a maximum of 16 Sanyos and 16 Sharps. But with the sharp modules I wouldn't be able to add 2 more to make 18, so I have to minus 1 loosing 175W and have unused space on the Wattsun tracker, is this correct?
With regards to what you say about the Sanyos meant for a grid tie ... I thought connecting them to an MPPT step down controller was similar to an MPPT inverter setup. My main question was would all or any of these arrangements be suitable for an Outback MX60 or FLEXmax 80 and which would you advise in this case? If it's the FLEXmax 80 then why?
I have nothing against sanyo, we have them on our roof, but we have seen this type of design fail to work because the vmp of the sanyo is not enough for 48v battery banks especially in summer months.
OK but I'm so sorry to say that I don't understand this statement about vmp but your help is much appreciated thanks.
Regards,
Simon.
 
578 Posts
Mar 28, 2008 06:40 pm
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

the issue is that two sanyos in series will likely be too much voltage for the mppt controller.  two sanyo in series is 135vdc (the design limit for mx 60, flexmax 80, T-80, xantrex xw mppt 60).  67.5 VOC x 2.  without any temperature deration. in winter you will likely destroy the controller.

if you put one in series, as i mentioned before, the voltage is not sufficient to charge the 48v battery bank.  as temp rises, voltage falls.

for your 48v system stick with an array of 48v or 54v nominal.

the one of your choices that i would pick would be the 16 sharps, 8 strings of 2.  that will work just fine on mx 60 or flex 80.

cheers,

james

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Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
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4 Posts
Apr 4, 2008 07:35 am
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

James,

Thanks for the explanation I do appreciate it really but you don't answer ALL my questions ... Year well like I said I wouldn't consider a 48v nominal array with the Sharp 175s because if my calculations are correct the required 46.15mm2 cable size is just too large to run 150 feet.
What do you think about this configuration:
Modules: 16, Day4Energy 48 MC 190, 190 W STC, 24 Vpm, 7.9A Ipm, 29.7 Voc, 8.3A Isc
Array: Four  4-module series string, 3,040 W STC total, 96 Vmp
Wire Size: (150 x 31.6) / (2% x 96) x 1.1 = 27.16mm2, requires #2 AWG
What is the nominal voltage here with these four 4-module series strings?
MAX 150Voc at -1deg. to -10deg. is (29.7 x 4)x1.13 = 134.244 yes?
Once again your help is much appreciated.
Regards,
Simon.
« Last Edit: Apr 4, 2008 07:54 am by Simon Cole »
 
578 Posts
Apr 4, 2008 11:04 am
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

hey, great work.  the day four also appear to be 18v nominal.

your math is correct 29.7 x 4 = 118.8

the question I have is on your chosen temp/voltage correction factor.  what is the coldest ever temperature in the place the array will go.  by using 1.13 you lead me to believe it is 14 degrees F.  if that is correct, and that is the coldest, then you are all set. (you would be using 2005 code, i assume, because 2008 requires 1.14 for 14 degrees F, which makes your corrected VDC 135.432, but that is fine it should not blow up til 150; 135 is the reasonable design line, and 0.4v over on the coldest day can slide Wink

as far as the day 4 modules, I have heard good things, we dont carry them (yet), they are from canada, and I am not sure whether they use multi-contact brand or tyco brand connectors on the back. 

normally because of cold temps and table 690.7 corrections, the typical string setup is strings of 3, with up to 5 on an mx 60 and 6 on a flex 80 or apollo t80.  if you can squeeze 4 in series, great, less voltage drop for you, 4 strings of 4 should work.

double check the temp and write back, either way, good work, you caught on really fast.

cheers,

james
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Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
 
4 Posts
Apr 10, 2008 05:33 am
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

Firstly thanks for the detailed reply! It's great to have someone to check my calculations and give support and advice and I thank you very much! You've certainly got me thinking. After contacting the met service here in the past 20 years the coldest temperature has been -8.7°C and the hottest 36°C.
The Day4Energy modules have 36.417 in. of #? AWG cable on the back and use Tyco Solarlok conections.

I have been using Appendix I and Appendix E in "Photovoltaic Power Systems and the National Electric Code: Suggested Practices" from the Southwest Technology Development Institute website here:
http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/Photovoltaics/Codes-Stds/PVnecSugPract.html
Also I don't have a copy of the 2008 NEC so I've only referenced the tables from the 2005 NEC I can view online here:
http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp

If you could please check over the following calculations to make sure I'm on track then it would be much appreciated. I think what I'm really tying to figure out now is what type of direct burial cable I need from the PV combiner box to the controller or in other words whats it called, USE, UF, SE, XLP? and what temperature derating is used [NEC Table 310.16] to calculate the required AWG size for a 2% voltage drop?

Proposed PV Installation:
Modules: 16 Day4Energy 48 MC 190, 190 W STC, 24 Vpm, 7.9A Ipm, 29.7 Voc, 8.3A Isc
Array: Four  4-module series string, 3,040 W STC total, 96 Vmp
Wire Run: 45m (150 feet)!
Inverter: Xantrex SW3048E
Battery Bank: 16 Trojan T-105 flooded-cell @ 48 volts
Calculations:
The module short-circuit current is 8.3 amps and as stated above the array consists of 16 modules divided into four 4-module series strings, therefore each string short-circuit current is 8.3 amps.
CONTINUOUS CURRENT: 1.25 x 8.3 = 10.375 amps
80% OPERATION: 1.25 x 10.375 =  12.97 amps per module

All calculations are based on copper conductors.
The maximum estimated module operating temperature is 70°C therefore the cables must be temperature derated.
[NEC Table 310.16]
At an ambient temperature of 30°C the derating factor for USE (75°C Insulation) cable is 0.33 at 61-70°C.
At an ambient temperature of 30°C the derating factor for USE-2 (90°C Insulation) cable is 0.58 at 61-70°C.

Therefore what size cable would be used to exceed the required 10.375 amps per module string?
Cable 10 AWG USE (75°C Insulation) has an ampacity at 70°C of 11.55 amps (0.33 x 35)
Cable 10 AWG USE-2 (90°C Insulation) has an ampacity at 70°C of  23.2 amps (0.58 x 40)
Cable 12 AWG USE-2 (90°C Insulation) has an ampacity at 70°C of  17.4 amps (0.58 x 30)
Cable 14 AWG USE-2 (90°C Insulation) has an ampacity at 70°C of  14.5 amps (0.58 x 25)

The requirement of 156% for each overcurrent protection at the PV combiner box is 1.25 x 10.375 = 12.97 amps.

Therefore what size circuit breaker would be used for each four module strings to provide overcurrent protection for the conductors? 13 amps? 14 amps? 15 amps is the maximum stated on the Day4Energy modules and do these have a rating less than the derated cable ampacity?

The array (4 string circuits) short-circuit current is 4 x 8.3 = 33.2 amps.
CONTINUOUS CURRENT: 1.25 x 33.2 = 41.5 amps
80% OPERATION: 1.25 x 41.5 = 51.88 amps

Therefore the ampacity requirement for wire size from the PV combiner box to the controller is 4 x 10.375 = 41.5 amps.
I would like to use a direct burial cable for the 150 foot run. What type of cable is required, USE, UF, SE, XLP? I would prefer to use a 2 core with earth shield or 3 core, is this available? What temperature derating would you have to consider?
In this case then what size AWG cable would be required for a 2% voltage drop?

Once again you help is much appreciated thanks.
Regards,
Simon.
 
578 Posts
Apr 17, 2008 11:08 am
Re: Outback MPPT controller Help with Voc, Vpm, Ipm, Isc and nominal voltages.

hi simon,

sorry for the wait, its been busy in these parts.

for the direct burial, i would probably select use-2, but i am not sure how it relates in cost to the other installation types.

chapter 9 table 8 in NEC has the ohms per 1000ft

2 gauge will give you 2% voltage drop
4 gauge will give you 3.2% voltage drop
6 gauge will give you 5% voltage drop

community folks please double check my math Wink

go ahead and use the 15a for series protection, and 10 gauge from each string to the combiner.  tyco makes extensions like multicontact that are usually 10 gauge and should be fine.

regarding direct burial, i am not sure if temp derates apply, any electricians out there? 

the day 4 and tyco equipment is a little non-standard , but we are preparing to deal with the changes and new equipment soon.

james
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Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
 

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