not enough power???

3 Posts
Dec 5, 2008 01:12 am
not enough power???

Hi Im a newbie- I have a battery charger(15watts.1amp@15v) kit,a new 12volt car battery and 7amp solar charge controller.
Im really pleased on how much i power around the house with it.But when i try to plug it into a whirlpool water heater(120/240v 2wire model) the inverter (proXone)1200watts continous power-2400peak power beeps at me and shuts itself down. can anyone help me figur out how to make it work.i need hot water bad cold showers sux! thank you isaac
 
5 Posts
Dec 5, 2008 08:45 am
Re: not enough power???

You're right, Isaac, there's not enough power. When the inverter beeps and shuts down it's saying the load is too big. The battery would complain soon too if it had a beeper.

You don't want to heat water with solar electricity. The best option is a solar thermal water heater if hot water on sunny afternoons is enough. Otherwise look at gas, e.g propane or LPG. And there are people who use oil or wood fired boilers.

If you have enough water pressure, the on-demand type of gas water heater is luxurious. You get as much hot water as you want, whenever you want it.

Ana Douglas
http://www.verdenova.com
« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2009 09:42 am by Ana Douglas »
 
3 Posts
Dec 5, 2008 12:41 pm
Re: not enough power???

Thank you Ana , But the(pg&e) power got cut off(small house fire)at my house.Too turn it back on will cost $3000.00dollars!! but the water is still on . so if I can make this work my life would be zen! Can I add on another battery??Car battery's are very cheap($35.00)out this way.. If I could add on another battery how does the wiring work?? agign thank you for the info im learning soo much:)
 
5 Posts
Dec 6, 2008 08:34 am
Re: not enough power???

Isaac, you can add another battery, but it's not a good idea. The old battery will drag the new one down. And the inverter is still probably too small for a standard water heater.

For less than $20 you can get a solar camp shower that will give you warmer (not necessarily hot) water in bright sun without electricity.

Here's another option that may or not work, but the price is great: a DIY "Solar Thermal Water Heater For Less Than Five Dollars", http://www.instructables.com/id/Solar-Thermal-Water-Heater-For-Less-Than-Five-Doll/

And here's a solution that uses your old water heater tank, http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Homes/2007-10-01/Build-Your-Own-Solar-Water-Heater.aspx

A tankless gas hot water heater starts at $200. There's still the cost of the gas (2 people use one 13 liter tank every 4-5 weeks), but it's wonderful not worrying about the hot water running out. Smiley

Ana Douglas
http://www.verdenova.com
« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2009 09:41 am by Ana Douglas »
 
Dec 7, 2008 06:13 pm
Re: not enough power???

The electrician in me says, "why not get a temporary construction service panel installed?" but the off gridder in me says, "who needs PP&G anyway?"
I agree with you, Ana. Just one 240 vac water heater element can require as much as 4500 watts to operate. It should be printed on the side of the element, Issac. At 12 vdc thats 375 amps. If all things were equal, that car battery would collapse in on itself and create a black hole that would suck in the entire universe. Ok, so I am exaggerating. The point is, you don't have anywhere near enough electrical power from a car battery for a conventional 240 vac water heater. In a conventional house this would be on #10 wire with a 2 pole 30 amp breaker, 7200 watts. Typically, only one 4500 watt element is on at a time. There is no easy or inexpensive way to resolve this. It will mean some sacrifices, Issac.
Couple of questions Issac.
What region do you live in? Southwest, northwest, central? Rural, suburbs, city?
How are you heating your home, if necessary?
How are you moving the water?
If freezing is not a threat and you have a way to circulate water from water heater tank and back again during the day.
Black pipe on the roof in sunshine can make some pretty hot water. Maybe too hot, so use extreme caution. Turn off water coming into water heater tank once it is full and include a "T" in the black pipe at its highest point on the roof with a "vent" pointing upwards. The vent will keep pressure from getting to high. The circulating pump will, hopfully keep the water from getting too hot. There will need to be cutoff valves in the pipe going to the roof as well so that when regular water pressure is restored to use hot water, all of your water doesn't run out onto the roof. If you think about it, there is a way to retrieve the hot water in the black pipe as well. Something rigged up like this should not be left alone or in the care of a child. There are a lot of safety issues involved with rigging something like this as well, for property and person. May I ask, what caused the house fire?

 
3 Posts
Dec 9, 2008 01:15 am
Re: not enough power???

Hi Mr. schmidt. I live in california in a city called Hayward(94541 zip). 10min away from oakland. Im heating with a pellet buring stove. I still have water from the city coming in to the house 790sq.feet.
  the fire started in the floor joist under the kitchen .it was electrical fire. has anyone invented a water heater that can run off of a couple(4)batterys(deep cell) Huh You know pour water in, cap off& heat it up. pump out with air ??  isaac thank you
« Last Edit: Dec 9, 2008 01:18 am by isaac caselis »
 
Dec 14, 2008 02:35 pm
Re: not enough power???

Please forgive my sounding nosey. The reason was to get an idea of the natural resources that may or may not be present for you to utilize. An example might be manure. A pile of manure, with a pipe coiled inside of it, covered with black plastic could heat water. These type of things.
Yeah, electrical fires, I here that a lot. If an electrical fire is caused, it happens because somebody, someperson, didn't adhere to the NEC or lightning struck. I have actually seen where two neutral wires on a 120 vac, 20 amp lighting circuit in a steel box in the ceiling where not made properly and they got hot enough to smoke badly. This scared the people in the house and they called the fire department which in due course, pulled their meter and would not give it back until the electrical was corrected and inspected. All of that could have been prevented simply by someone twisting those two neutral wires together tightly before screwing on a wire nut. It was in a box though and that is what probably kept any wood from catching on fire. An arc fault breaker would have helped also but the house was old enough not to require them according to NEC. Another example is where somebody changed a 15 amp fuse on 14 gauge wire to a 30 amp fuse. There was nothing left of that home. In a sense, this made the 14 gauge wire the "fuse" but instead of blowing harmlessly encased in glass and metal, the wire got hot enough to set wood on fire and burn the house down. I could go on all night with these examples. The reason I am bringing them to your attention should be obvious. In the wrong hands, even small amounts of electricity can be extremely dangerous. Just look at the world today and why there is such a thing as non-polluting renewable energies. Ok, enough said about that.

It is possible to safely heat water with a deep cycle battery bank.
http://www.survivalunlimited.com/diversionloads.htm
But lets think about this for a minute. Take a look at the SJH12600 element. Thats 600 watts at 12 vdc or 50 amps at 12 vdc. It claims to be able to heat 15 gallons from 75F to 120F in 5 hours. 5 times 50 = 250 amphours at 12 vdc nominal. That would mean nothing less than 4 - Trojan T-105's wired in series/parallel for a total of 440 amp hours at 12 vdc nominal. After heating 15 galloans of water it would more than 50% dead. To replace that with PV in your region it would need a PV array of no less than 600 watts at 12 vdc nominal and 5 hours of clear sky's and sunshine to reach 100% for the next 15 gallons. Also there is the need to change the thermal switch because the ones on your water heater are not rated for 50 amps at 12 vdc and the size of the wire would have to be no less than #6 awg cu. and it would need protection with a fused disconnect rated for 12 vdc nominal.
How many thousands of dollars are we looking at here for 15 gallons of hot water per day if lucky?
It would not be environmentally benign as solar power but, but maybe you should look at the cost of having a gas fired water heater and an LP. or Nat. gas service installed. Then as time and money allow, having a proper solar thermal water heater installed to reduce dependence on that gas. Who knows maybe even an air handler or radiant hydronics to heat the home. One thing is for certain, all of this renewable energy stuff is extremely expensive but before there prices come down the established energy infrastructure will raise theirs.
 

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