El Sid pump problems

99 Posts
Feb 6, 2011 05:38 am
El Sid pump problems

I bought a bunch of the El Sid by Ivan Labs pumps for circulating my radiant heat.  I was sold on the no bearings, no seals, no brushes promise.  But I've had problems with several of the 20W battery models.  They stop spinning and one of the two LEDs turns off.  If I bang them with my hand, they'll usually start again, for awhile, and then stop.  I had one of them actually short out and burn through the casing.  What can be causing this?  I believe I have them mounted appropriately -- the pipe runs horizontally, but the pump head is facing out, not up or down.  I can't find a website for Ivan Labs and don't see any tech support info in the tiny info sheet that came in the box.
 
462 Posts
Feb 7, 2011 02:03 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Thomas, no bearings, no brushes, so how do they spin? I think heat and friction may have a little to do with their failure as you already witnessed. Crack one open and check out the surface wear between the internal parts. Check for wear along the bottom edge and on the internal surface on the part that rotates. Or, if there is a friction reducing material, check for wear and tear or if it's missing altogether. If you grease it up and can put it back together you may get more life out of it.
 Best bet is to change over to a real, ready available pump and use PV to run it if that is your set up or goal.
 
99 Posts
Feb 7, 2011 02:11 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

It spins through magnetic induction.  The impeller floats freely in the water.  There is no greasing necessary as there is no friction between parts.  Moreover, the impeller body portion is not apparently the problem.  If I put on a different head, e.g. the 20W PV version, then it seems to function fine.  Just the 20W Battery heads have an issue.
 
462 Posts
Feb 8, 2011 11:30 am
Re: El Sid pump problems

Right, just like your computer fans and the like. But these too wear out over time from friction and can slow or stop with the build up of dust and dirt. First they become noisy and then eventually fail from wobbling around unbalanced, and eventually overheating. 
 Now add a potentially dirty hot fluid to the mix. Adding the more powerful head as you mentioned only helps the impeller to overcome this friction as you would expect. Of course you can't see the impeller in operation in an enclosed compartment so ruling out friction becomes more difficult, but the shorting and burning you witnessed should verify this. Adding a small amount of heat proof or waterproof grease as I mentioned may help reduce friction.
 
26 Posts
Feb 8, 2011 02:50 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

The water is the lubricating medium.  Computer fans have bearings, the El Sid pumps do not.  There is nothing to grease.  If you put grease in the impeller compartment, it would surely cause it to clog up and fail.  The PV head is actually weaker than the battery head because the battery version provides rated wattage at 12-13V whereas the PV version provides rated wattage at around 17V.  Being more powerful is not the answer.  Also, the pumps run very quietly until they stop functioning.

In the extremely thin documentation that I could find online, when the pump stops and one of the LEDs goes out, it means the pump is "unbalanced".  However, as I said, it is oriented according to specs.

I was hoping since the product is sold on this site, someone here would be familiar with it.

 
462 Posts
Feb 8, 2011 06:10 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Thomas, if the pump shuts down from being unbalanced, as I also mentioned earlier, then there must be some factor causing this unbalance. More than likely it is caused from wear due to friction and/or debris in the fluid building up on the impeller.
 As mentioned also, recheck your modern computer fans, they too run on magnetism, no bearings, and fail in the same way.
 Though you don't seem to believe it, a small amount of grease should help the situation. Or as I also suggested, use a real 110 V pump, as most radiant zones need and use, in conjunction with an inverter and battery to rid yourself of future problems with these tiny, low head, low flow pumps. 
 
220 Posts
Feb 8, 2011 11:41 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems


Not seeing much info about those pumps available.

some possible contact info:
(561)746.9760

ivandelsol(at)juno.com
ivandelsol(at)bellsouth.net

don't know much about those pumps but they look to be well made to me. pretty tight voltage spread for the operating range on the battery version, solar version looks to be a bit wider range. i suspect they might be happier running with the electric head at 12 o'clock. probably run into mounting issues then- plus the "scant" documentation seems to imply that horizontal mounting is all that's needed without regard to the head orientation?

i would look at the wire runs for the pump power. i would go with no less than #12 awg for up to 30 feet and larger still for longer runs. we don't have all those pumps tied into just one wire run do we?..a nice breaker panel with 3amp breakers would be the cats meow here.

any filter in line? might have some stray bits of PEX or gunk floating around there..

kindly keep us updated on what you find Smiley

kind regards, dave
 
26 Posts
Feb 14, 2011 08:27 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

i would look at the wire runs for the pump power. i would go with no less than #12 awg for up to 30 feet and larger still for longer runs. we don't have all those pumps tied into just one wire run do we?..a nice breaker panel with 3amp breakers would be the cats meow here.

My 12VDC breaker panel is fed by a Samlex SDC-60 (http://www.altestore.com/store/DC-to-DC-Voltage-Converters/Samlex-SDC-60-20-35V-Input-138V-Output-60A/p6050/) which puts out 13.8V from a nominal 24V source (22-30V).  I have a 20A breaker in my panel feeding a 15' long #10 wire run to my distribution box.  There I break into 10 zones, each with a 3A fuse (each pump only requires 1.67A continuous, but I gave some leeway for start-up surge).  The distribution box switches the pumps via 12V relay, triggered by millivolt programmable thermostats.  The final run from there (3-4' long max) is #16 wire.  I doubt the voltage drop is more than 1-2% tops, but I've seen it claimed that these pumps are ok from 8-16V.

any filter in line? might have some stray bits of PEX or gunk floating around there..

Yep, there's a filter on the input of my hot water heater.  It's possible some junk got from the pipes into the pumps prior to going through the filter on the HWH, but I wonder then why only the battery model pumps are having an issue and not the PV ones.  I'm hesitant to take apart the impeller casing because I didn't think it was a serviceable part, but I can do so and see what happens.
 
220 Posts
Feb 14, 2011 11:21 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems


Thomas,

sounds like the ideal install to me!

hope Ivan Labs might step up with some answers (trouble with that model head perhaps) as it seems that your install is not a factor. i would have expected many years of trouble free operation with your WELL thought out system.

any luck at all with tech help?

dave

-> stray thought, (long shot) on those impeller units?? could it be that tiny iron particles are being attracted to the magnetic drive and causing issues?..if so i should think we would have seen other reports of the problem..real curious to see how this plays out and for any any answers you might find.

-> if it looks easy enough, i'd be temped to dismantle one to see.

 
26 Posts
Feb 15, 2011 04:01 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Not yet on tech support.  I only use pex and copper in my system, so I don't know where any iron could come from.  My well water is almost perfectly pure... I had it tested for everything and all minerals were almost nonexistent.  I think I will dismantle it and have a look, but I'm not optimistic I'll find anything.  I think it is an issue with the drive head.
 
462 Posts
Feb 19, 2011 11:53 am
Re: El Sid pump problems

....iron could be coming from your tank.......rust?
 
99 Posts
Feb 19, 2011 07:33 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Nope, everything is copper.  Both the solar storage tank and the propane on-demand water heater use copper heat exchangers.  I made sure to have no iron in the system because I'm using non-barrier PEX.
 
462 Posts
Feb 22, 2011 10:34 pm
z

 z
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2011 09:23 am by Tom Mayrand »
 
99 Posts
May 23, 2012 12:28 am
Re: El Sid pump problems

FYI, I eventually found a phone number for Ivan Labs and had a back and forth with them.  Ultimately, they ended up repairing all the heads for me for around $200 total (they were out of warranty).  Apparently part of the electronics were damaged by a power surge at some point.  Also, it turns out I didn't actually receive the battery version of the heads from the vendor, but a much smaller tolerance DC power supply version, and I didn't always provide such a tight tolerance (they could have been damaged by equalizing my batteries).  Also, my home was struck by lightning a few years back, which may have been the origin of the issues.  Now I'm on a constant output DC-DC converter with fuses and breakers, so I hope to prevent the problem in the future.  So far, they've been running right through the winter and perform perfectly after being repaired.
 
7 Posts
Sep 16, 2012 10:34 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

I have recently purchased an elsid pump and when I installed it, I oriented the pump head horizontal with the output going to the right (higher than the input which is slightly lower on the body of the pump) so the actual electronics are facing out.  When I started it up, it had a slight rattle, but from 10 feet away, it could hardly be heard.  It is a quiet pump.
Question is, how are these pumps supposed to be orientated when installed, or does it matter ?
Just off hand, I cannot remember the pump number, but it is supposed to pump 3 gallons a minute, and according to my radiant floor manifold flow meter, it is only pumping 1 liter a minute thru 4 zones or 1 gallon a min.
Not too worried about it not doing what it says its supposed to, as the grundfos pump that it replaced (on slow speed) only pumped 1.5 litre per min. - so it should do the job.

When I ordered the pump, I also purchased the reccommended 120V to 12 V power adapter, so it should be the right size to power the unit.

Just wondering if the rattle or orientation is whats killing the output.

I am still considering purchasing another couple of these pumps for my solar water heating unit.
thanks
 
462 Posts
Sep 17, 2012 11:58 am
Re: El Sid pump problems

dave, are you sure you purged the heating zone to remove all the air in the lines?  The rattle of the impeller could be from air bubbles passing through...
 
26 Posts
Sep 18, 2012 09:51 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

The pumps make some amount of noise.  It's hard to say if your rattle is normal operation noise or not.  It sounds like you oriented it correctly.  The electronics head should be facing out and the pipes can be in any position within that plane.  Lower output might be expected if you have a large vertical lift distance.  3 gal/min is probably with no vertical lift.  Mine only push 0.5-1 gal/min through my floors.
 
26 Posts
Sep 18, 2012 09:53 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Cavitation (air) could def cause noise.
 
7 Posts
Sep 26, 2012 04:59 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Thank you for the replies.

I have three different areas to remove air from, and have bled the system, waited for a day, and bled it again, a couple of times, so I don't think the air is in there anymore. . .
I am finding, that as the weather gets cooler, and I run the pump more, the sound its making is not as loud. .  so it is possible, that it's just the noise they make (breaking it in ? )
I will keep you updated, if it fails, I have the old grundfos pump to switch back too, as both pumps fit in the same fittings. . . just in case. . .
If it keeps working, I may have to pick up a couple more of these for the solar water heater, compared to the grundfos, ya gotta save hydro !
 
7 Posts
Jan 12, 2013 05:31 pm
Re: El Sid pump problems

Here is a bit of an update for you.  The Elsid pump is working fine, after a bit of run time, it has quieted down alot, and now is hardly making any noise at all.  I have not hooked the Kill-o-watt meter to it as of yet, but it seems to be doing the job of circulating my radiant floor water just fine - no difference in house heating compared to the grundfos.
 
2 Posts
Jan 1, 2015 11:25 am
Re: El Sid pump problems

I have used El Sid pumps for over 13 years and learned early on to orient the pipe vertically so any trapped air can rise through the pump body.  The driver should be horizontal to prevent the impeller from riding hard on the bearing at each end. 

I too, have lost a few to lightning strikes.  I learned to GROUND all collector and copper plumbing to prevent damage to the electronics in these pumps.  Grounding is very important and should be done properly.  I also had professional lightning protection installed on my building after a very close major lightning strike that took out a tree about 10ft from my building.  Any metal on your roof (collectors + solar panels) can attract lightning with devastaing results.
 

Disclaimer and Disclosure

The Alternative Energy Store, Inc reserves the right, within its sole discretion, to refuse or delete any posting or portion thereof, or terminate or block the access to this forum.

The opinions and statements posted on this forum are the opinions and statements of the person posting same, and do not constitute the opinion or act of the Alternative Energy Store, Inc (AltE). The Alternative Energy Store, Inc does not endorse or subscribe to any particular posting. No posting shall be construed as the act or opinion of the Alternative Energy Store, Inc.

Click here for BBB Business Review

McAfee SECURE sites help keep you safe from identity theft, credit card fraud, spyware, spam, viruses and online scams
Desktop Website | Mobile Website

Share

Click on an icon to share! If you don't see the method you want, hover over the orange "+".

Feedback

What can we do to help you?

Please enter a summary
Sorry, the copyright must be in the template.
Please notify this forum's administrator that this site is using an ILLEGAL copy of SMF!
Copyright removed!!