Successful Systems

7 Posts
Dec 23, 2007 08:21 pm
Successful Systems

We are planning a new home and I would love to hear from those of you that have been successful in designing an Alt power system. We are considering a combo Wind/Solar on grid. The house will be ICF ( I am a certified Amvic ICF contractor) construction and have a geothermal HVAC system. I do want the ability to operate on our own if the grid goes down as it often does here. I expect to invest around 30K to be included in the construction loan so we can amortize over 30 yrs. I know that a new construction project is the perfect time to do this and we plan to break ground in 2008. Please share what you can!
 
Jan 4, 2008 04:56 am
Re: Successful Systems

Hello Steve.

While trying not to sound to pessimistic (out of respect for our host) the best advice I can give you is to, shop around!
Renewable Energies (RE) is a sellers market, as opposed to a buyers market (unless one happens to be "filthy stinkin rich") and where Photovoltaics are concerned its all premium priced and (to use the expression loosely) a  freeforall. Its maddening. Here are a couple of sites that show the very wide swings out there.

http://www.pool-heat.com/pv/pvlist/pvsolarex/pvsolarex.htm

Look particularly at the Solarex MSX 77. This PV module is no longer in production. Solarex was a subsudairy of the American Oil Company (AMOCO) which, as you may know, sold out to British Petroleum (BP) which also produces PV modules.
The MSX 77's are very similar to the following PV modules.
Except for the price and warranty.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Panels/51-to-99-Watt-Solar-Panels/Power-Up-BSP60-12-60-Watt-Solar-Panel/p3995/

In all my "shopping around" things of this nature, where as this is one of many extremes, are a commonplace occurrence.
The PV market is just another one of many markets in the world today that cater to those that can afford very large quantities of there product. Please do not let the PV industries banner of saving the planet Earth from certain doom be your only decision when buying into solar. They, just like the rest of us, have belly buttons too.

Pity about Earth.
 
7 Posts
Jan 4, 2008 08:38 am
Re: Successful Systems

Thank you Thomas,
By the way not that it's particularly relevant but my baby boy is a Thomas too. I do understand the market dynamics you described and I have been looking into Alt power for quite a little while now. The reality is "Not Rich"(borrowing the money), "Not Saving The Planet",(safety-security-economics). We have Ameren power here and they are very proud of their kilowatt's even though the grid is old and truly unreliable. I just don't feel that I have enough knowledge to begin purchasing parts for my planned system. Is there someplace I can get educated, not a sales pitch?
 
184 Posts
Jan 4, 2008 09:20 am
Re: Successful Systems

Steve,

You mentioned that Ameren is your utility company.  Do you know about the Ameren plan that lets you pay for electricity based on demand?  If you're unable to go "grid-tied", at least you might be able to use solar or wind energy to offset a portion of your electric bill.  By using electricity from your alternative system during peak hours, you should do well.  Check here for more information:

 http://www.powersmartpricing.org/

John
 
163 Posts
Jan 4, 2008 10:14 am
Re: Successful Systems

Steve,

The folks here at AES (and their competitors as well!) can put together a packaged deal for you. A great way to start is to look at a packaged deal like this one and make sure you understand the purpose of every item in the package.
http://store.altenergystore.com/Kits-and-Package-Deals/Grid-Tied-with-Battery-Backup/Grid-Tied-w-Battery-Backup-Package-1/p6075/

Places like these below can help you with that.
http://www.nrel.gov/
http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/renewable.htm
http://www.awea.org/
http://www.energy.ca.gov/

Once you understand the reason for everything in that package and how they all integrate then you can start to put together your own package. I too looked at having a small wind generator and in the end decided that it was not worth the trouble. Wind looks really good on initial price/performance, but if you have anything less than a steady 15 knots available to you every day then you are likely to end up with a wind generator producing about 20 percent of its rated capacity.

John
 
7 Posts
Jan 6, 2008 10:57 am
Re: Successful Systems

Thank you Gentlemen,
I have checked out all the links and bookmarked them for future reference. As my education continues with your help here is another question. In attempting to size a PV system I am using my present "not particularly efficient" home as a model. Using an average of 2000KWH per month in total energy consumption I used the formula as follows 2000x1000/30/24=2777 watts per hour average usage. Is this anywhere near correct? If so can I use this information to determine a system rating? Again thanks you all your help!
 
578 Posts
Jan 7, 2008 01:36 pm
Re: Successful Systems

that is not correct.  there is no such thing as watts per hour.  watts is already a rate.

2000kwh = 2,000,000 watt hours

2,000,000 watt hours / 30 days = 66,666 watt hours per day (66.6 kWh per day)

66,666 watt hours per day / 24 hours = 2777 watt hours per hour (this is not a useful calculation)

instead take 66,666 and divide by sun hours in your location
66,666 / 4 = 16,667 watts of solar capacity for 100% or close offsetting of your loads.  that would cost around $85,000! so figure out what percentage you want to shoot for or what your budget is, and go from there.  every dollar spent on efficiency is worth 5 in system costs.  every watt hour you dont use is a watt hour you dont have to produce with relatively expensive renewable means.

james
Alt-E staff


AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
 
7 Posts
Jan 8, 2008 08:48 am
Re: Successful Systems

Thank You James!
As you can tell I'm not an electrician. I had asked one how to figure out what you just showed me and he couldn't. So I came up with that formula. Thanks to you I now have the correct one. I fully intend to build our new home with maximum efficiency in mind (ICF walls/GEO HVAC/Etc.)In addition we will have natural gas available. I believe I can easily cut the current usage in half. By your estimation that would require an 8.5KW Alt power system and an all PV would cost around $42,000 amortized over 15 yrs equals $354.00 per month which just happens to be less than the $400.00 we pay now. That being said, am I headed in the right direction? Thanks again!!

Steve

(42k/8.5KW=4.94 per watt. Is this too low?)
 
578 Posts
Jan 8, 2008 10:25 am
Re: Successful Systems

that is about right. it may be better or worse, our market is very volatile.  you can use the figure of about $10 per installed pv watt to estimate the installed cost of a system.  of course this is not exact, but this is about where the market is right now.  you can do a lot of the work yourself in many cases, but that may hinder your ability to get state rebates depending on what state you build in. 

james
Alt-E staff

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
 
7 Posts
Mar 31, 2008 08:24 pm
Re: Successful Systems

I'm back! I have determined to look into building a wind component in my system and I was wondering if anyone has experience with constructing a DC generator using a recycled DC motor? Also has anyone ever tried to use the AC generator unit from a gas powered portable generator? I have one that the motor is shot but I'm pretty sure the genset is still good. I know it is a high torque unit but I was actually thinking of trying a squirrel cage turbine on my old RV. At hwy speed I think I can get it to turn ( I rescued a pretty big cage from a dumpster at a construction site. I'm sure it will increase drag but the thing drinks gas so bad now I doubt I'll notice the difference. So any any comments are appreciated even if you just want to tell me I'm crazy Wink
Thanks
 
578 Posts
Apr 1, 2008 10:45 am
Re: Successful Systems

do not put a wind turbine on a moving vehicle.  that is crazy.
if you want to construct one that will not be on anything moving, there is a guy named hugh piggott that does home-made wind turbines.  look him up on google for plans and such.

cheers,

james
Alt-E staff

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
 
163 Posts
Apr 1, 2008 11:40 am
Re: Successful Systems

do not put a wind turbine on a moving vehicle.  that is crazy.

But you have to admit that it's pretty damned funny. I can just picture some company that will remain nameless coming out with a roof-mounted version for your car.
 
7 Posts
Apr 2, 2008 08:17 am
Re: Successful Systems

Well I thought it might be crazy too! As to the serious question in my post regarding DC motors as generators. I am led to believe that any DC motor will function as a generator. Is this true has anyone done this? If so can I use brushless units ( to improve service length ) ? If you have any info please share. I am going to try it either way it would just nice to avoid the first few trial and error steps.
Steve
 
Apr 2, 2008 07:54 pm
Re: Successful Systems

You may already know this one but here it is any way.
http://otherpower.com/
They have a discussion board as well.
 
7 Posts
Apr 2, 2008 10:21 pm
Re: Successful Systems

I am very impressed with those that have the time and where with all to start from scratch , such as the guys at other power . But I figure I should utilize the work done by others in the past whenever possible . To that end has anyone attempted to use medium to large DC motors as a generator ? If so what suprises can I expect ? Also is there any correlation between rated watts and power producing watts ? By the way I have managed to separate the genset from that busted motor and I have determined that the function is based on both RPM and torque (based on load). So it's probably not a good candidate for a wind powered unit , but I'm most likely to try it anyway as soon as I get time .
 

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