Freetricity.com

163 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 02:51 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Troy,

Try putting the wires on a 12V bulb and see how brightly you can get it to shine. You can get one out of the tail light of your car to use as a test if you don't have one handy.

I am slightly confused about a previous statement that you made.

You said "I actually have had access to five diffrent freetricity 1200 watt units. They all have produced voltage and the newest produce pretty high volts so long as they are unloaded. Now when you put them on a discharged battery it takes well over 15mph wind to get these units over 13v."

Did you sign up as a dealer and purchase five units or have they sent you five different units after you couldn't get the first four to work for whatever reason?

John

163 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:06 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts - some clarification please

E2D puts out (and yes John voltage does matter) around 10 amps at 21 volts at 8 - 10 mph and its max of about 48 volts at 24 amps at about 20 mph.

Steve,

I don't see any charge controller included in your system. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that there was some sort of voltage regulator build into the DC generator and thus there was no need to have a charge controller.

Now you say it has an output of 21V in eight to ten MPH winds, but the output jumps to 48V in about twenty MPH winds.

If the voltage output increases as wind speed increases, can you explain where the voltage control is taking place so that Troy does not end up putting 48V across his 12V battery?

John

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:15 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"1. A 100ah battery might well provide 10 amps for 10 hours, but after a few charges and discharges it would no longer be of any use. For deep-cycle batteries, a discharge of 50% is the maximum that is recommended if you expect the battery to last more than 2 or 3 years."

*** No inverter will allow the battery to totally discharge and most, like ours shuts down at 11 volts.***

"2. Here is a quote directly from the freetricity.com website:
"3 to 5 = 10 x 10
Three to Five Hours of Wind Gives you ...
Ten Hours at 10 Amps = 10 Kilowatt Hours"

The clear implication there is that the E2D will generate 10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity in 3 to 5 hours."

*** 10 hours at 10 amps is 10 kilowatt hours!

10 amps x 120 volts = 1200 watts or 1.2 kilowatts. 10 hours of this is 12 kilowatt hours.

We state 10 because of the inverters power consumption and the fact that we do not totally discharge the battery.

"Another point worth mentioning is that power rating of a renewable energy system is the amount of energy produced by the renewable energy source, and NOT the rating of the inverter."

*** That's not true (again) as we advertise and sell a system!

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:20 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"Steve,

I don't see any charge controller included in your system. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that there was some sort of voltage regulator build into the DC generator and thus there was no need to have a charge controller."

*** The new E2D version 3 does require a charge controller and all of our recent customers have been informed of this. Troy was also notified of this. The website will reflect this when complete.

The previous versions did a have simple controller built in.

We are in the process of building our own (available in Jan) but have been recommending xantrex recently.

578 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:25 pm
specs

does a controller for wind come as part of the system?

does a controller for the photovolaics come as part of the system?

does the wind turbine have a max power listing at a given windspeed and tower height?

with instantaneous power ratings it is much easier to do the math and find typical per day energy production

james Alt-E staff

-- modification, after noticing last post -- thanks regarding controller  -- is that for the wind or solar?  if for wind, does that mean it is c series acting as diversion load controller?  if so is diversion load available?  -- if for solar also c series - and are there specs available for module?  thanks

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854
« Last Edit: Nov 30, 2007 03:27 pm by James Cormican »

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:25 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"If the voltage output increases as wind speed increases, can you explain where the voltage control is taking place so that Troy does not end up putting 48V across his 12V battery?

John"

*** If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.

Another thing John, AGM's have a totally different spec sheet than normal deep cycle batteries to such an extent that you can totally deplete them without harm and even freeze them without harm.

Educating you is fun ...

FYI: Your cars alternator does not put out 12 volts in an open circuit. It puts out 30 something and you cars battery absorbs it.

33 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:25 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Thanks John sorry for the confusion but I am trying to be careful so I stay on the education side of things. The most productive way to handle this is to say that I at this very moment have two of these units and I want to get them working or know for sure that they never will. Freetricity is now using a name brand controller. It is not included but I have that, am using it and it appears to be working. I have done like Steve says and touched the wires together and it sparks. As I said if you put a meter on the turbine while it is free spinning it will put out 40v in 20+ wind. I am curious if that spark really does indicate 10amp? I will try the 12v light test you recommend. Maybe the amp clamp will give indication while lighting that bulb? Thanks again for the help and I will let you know what happens with the bulb.

578 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:30 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

please correct me if i am wrong, but a clamp on should work except if a controller is regulating and thus preventing spinning (like an air-x).  if battery is full, controller may regulate and thus show little or no current.

also dc clamp on ammeters are very expensive.  we have one here it is a fluke 337, but are not that common to do it yourselfers.

james  Alt-E staff

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:31 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"-- modification, after noticing last post -- thanks regarding controller  -- is that for the wind or solar?  if for wind, does that mean it is c series acting as diversion load controller?  if so is diversion load available?  -- if for solar also c series - and are there specs available for module?  thanks"

The solar panel provided varies in size (2-5 watts) and has other functions besides providing a safe float level charge to the battery.

Yes, it is the c series.

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:36 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"I have done like Steve says and touched the wires together and it sparks. As I said if you put a meter on the turbine while it is free spinning it will put out 40v in 20+ wind."

Troy ... there is something wrong. You wouldn't be able to see a spark at all if it were only an amp or two.

And even if were just that amp or two it would still charge your battery ... it would just take longer. You said it was over a period of six days in good wind. Even at 1 amp it would/should have charged that battery.

33 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 03:57 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Steve I would agree that something is wrong. Like I indicated I am not sure what kind of indicator that spark is of amps but yes even at one I have had plenty of wind to charge a battery. Trouble is how do I figure this out? The battery works with a standard charger and it works over and over so it is eliminated. Freetricity has stated to me directly that they tested both of my current units and they were working. Both units behave exactly the same. I have tried direct hook up, I purchased a diversion load unit from another source and I now have the xantrex controler and the results were the same with all of those on a number of batteries. If this was going to work it should have. Now James here again I must appologize for my lack of knowledge. What I have was not expensive at all. It is a simple digital amp meter from Lowes. You hang it over the hot wire and it reads the amps. It works fine for example when you use it on wires coming out of your home breaker panel. Will this type meter not work here?

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 04:01 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Troy,

You have an AC amp meter not a DC amp meter.

Most inexpensive meters do not have a dc option.

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 04:20 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Troy,

A few issues here:

1) You cannot charge a deep cycle battery with a standard battery charger without damaging the battery.

2) A simple hydrometer test (as done by your battery guy) will not tell you if the battery is good ... as in it can take a charge.

3) Do you have deep cycle batteries? What kind ... make and model?

Because again, either the batteries were destroyed before you hooked up the controller of they were destroyed by using a normal car battery charger.

The spark is telling you it is creating electricity (free) so the only thing it can be is the battery!

578 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 04:21 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

yes an AC clamp on ammeter will not work for DC.  our dc clamp on ammeter cost \$300 when you do work like we do, it pays for itself, but for most do it yourselfers, it is cost prohibitive.

- james Alt-E staff

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

Tel: 877.878.4060 x107  or +1.978.562.5858 x107
Fax: 877.242.6718  or +1.978.562.5854

33 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 04:29 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Perfect. I am going to bet you are correct on that Steve. Now my multimeter on the other hand is relatively expensive. It has five function areas. DCV, ACV, ACA, DCA, and something I don't know probably ohms. Anyway the DC setting should work yes? My setting options are 2, 200m, 20m/10a, 2m, and 200with a backwards y. My wire connection options are red v, black com black A and black 10A. Lets just call the hot wire from the turbine red and the negative wire black. Now can anyone tell me what to hook where to get a reading or do I still not have the right equipment?

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 04:37 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Troy,

I'm more concerned about your batteries now.

What kind? Make and model?

If you are not using a deep cycle battery (an appropriate one) you cannot charge it.

Attempting to charge with a standard car battery charger (way higher charge rate than a deep cycle can handle) has probably destroyed them.

163 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:10 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Troy,

I'm more concerned about your batteries now.

What kind? Make and model?

If you are not using a deep cycle battery (an appropriate one) you cannot charge it.

Attempting to charge with a standard car battery charger (way higher charge rate than a deep cycle can handle) has probably destroyed them.

You seem to be running in circles Steve. How does the above compare with what you had to say in post #65?

Quote
*** If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.

Another thing John, AGM's have a totally different spec sheet than normal deep cycle batteries to such an extent that you can totally deplete them without harm and even freeze them without harm.

Educating you is fun ...

FYI: Your cars alternator does not put out 12 volts in an open circuit. It puts out 30 something and you cars battery absorbs it.

Will a Sears 2/8 amp 12V home battery charger really cause more damage than a device producing more than 20 amps at 48V when placed across the terminals of a 12V battery?

Troy,

It looks as if you indeed have an ammeter that can measure up to 10 amps which is probably much more than what your E2D is producing. Ohms is a measure of resistance. In Physics V = I x R where V is the voltage, I is the current, and R is the resistance measured in ohms.

To measure current, your meter needs to be placed in "series" with the positive lead coming from your E2D.

Connect the +ve lead from your E2D into the 10amp input of your ammeter and then connect the common lead out from your ammeter to the +ve of the battery that you are trying to charge.

If you can charge the battery with a battery charger and it holds a charge then there is nothing wrong with the battery.

John

33 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:26 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Thanks John I am going to have to give this a rest for the day but I have the 12v bulb that you mentioned and now I can hook up the meter and try that. I will do that soon and let you know what I find. Steve I have actually tried a number of deep cycle batteries. As I said I have had them tested by an engineer at Interstate battery headquarters. He actually used two diffrent devices that were both several thousand dollars. For whatever reason he has no problem charging these batteries with a car charger and I charged them according to his instructions. Not sure what to tell you other than when I do this they charge up and hold it. Then they discharge over several hours with an inverter. The turbine then will not charge them. Unhook it and the car charger charges them just like the engineer said. Thanks all I am going to try to light the bulb and I am going to try to get an amp reading while charging my batt and see what happens.

163 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:30 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Connect the +ve lead from your E2D into the 10amp input of your ammeter and then connect the common lead out from your ammeter to the +ve of the battery that you are trying to charge.

If you can charge the battery with a battery charger and it holds a charge then there is nothing wrong with the battery.

John

Troy, you may want to have a look at the manual that came with your meter or give me the manufacturer and model number and I can look it up.

Your meter should be set to DCA which means it is measuring DC Amps. If you get a reading of zero, then do it again using the 2 amp setting instead of the 10 amp. If the current reading is higher than 10 amps then you will probably see the display on your meter flashing which indicates that you are getting a reading higher than what your meter is set for.

Don't be surprised if you have to go all the way down to the 200ma (that's milliamps or one thousandth of an amp) to get a reading. 200ma is 0.2 amps.

You may also have to use the +ve lead of your meter as the input and the 10amp lead as the output, but the little manual that comes with the meter should make it clear how to measure current.

John

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:41 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.***

*** But not at anything over 4 - 5 amps though!

"Will a Sears 2/8 amp 12V home battery charger really cause more damage than a device producing more than 20 amps at 48V when placed across the terminals of a 12V battery?"

No ... that's why he needs the controller.

But again, you cannot charge a deep cycle battery with a standard 12 volt car battery charger without destroying the battery..

And it's you who seems to running around in circles John. Tell us more about how it takes 4000 watts to charge the battery?

Nick ... is the acceptable?

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:44 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Come now John ... do you really think 200 ma would create the kind of spark he has already acknowledged seeing?

Perhaps a beginner class in electricity would help you?

I can recommend ITT. They have student loans available and job placement assistance.

109 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:46 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Heya Steve!  = )

Nick ... is the acceptable?

Heh...  There have been a comment here or there that is slightly name calling by John and others.  But IMHO, things have *really* turned around, and you guys have made this into a very useful and informative thread!  I appreciate the restraint people have had, and am enjoying reading/learning!  = )

Thanks!
-Nick

P.S. So long as we can keep the insults to none, and say that you disagree, and why/give facts, rather than insulting the person, we are all good here.  = )

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:54 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Okay!

I don't mind educating you but John is more of a challenge;)

109 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 05:58 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Steve!  You are killing me!

Perhaps a beginner class in electricity would help you?

I can recommend ITT. They have student loans available and job placement assistance.

*This* is exactly what I was talking about.  I am so torn.  It seems like we are having a productive/useful conversation, where people are learning, and solutions to problems are being found.  Then you resort to insulting someone because you disagree with them.  I really should ban you now, as this completely flies in the face of what I have requested, and on the principle of what I have said, should follow up.

But the larger issue is that there is someone here that has questions on the system, and you are the person who knows the most about the system here.  So since up until now, things had been productive after my last request, and someone owns the hardware and is having issues, for their sake I will give you one more chance.  If this happens again, I will ban you, regardless of who is effected.

-Nick

P.S. In the case above, you should quote facts and references as to the amps required to make the spark shown.

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 06:19 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Geeeze Nick!

I thought I was referring something helpful!

I'll be more mindful of your concerns in the future.

44 Posts
Nov 30, 2007 06:29 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

"P.S. In the case above, you should quote facts and references as to the amps required to make the spark shown."

It's the knowledge of being an engineer for 28 years in r&d Nick!

Try getting a dime cell to spark ... they have about 200 ma.

Or a 9 v transistor battery ... it will give one small spark and die.

2 Posts
Dec 1, 2007 12:43 am
Re: Freetricity Facts

Steve,

I work in the electrical engineering field and have for most of my career.  I work with power distribution systems for the railroad industry, I do everything from load analysis for DC emergency lighting systems to 1.2MW 3 phase power distribution.  I have never purchased anything from altenergystore.com, but found this site because I was looking for a xantrex power monitor.  I've been watching this thread for the past several days and it's really making the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

Your website mentions that the average household uses 40KWh of energy per day, and that in moderate wind conditions, the E2D can supply 25% of that power, which is 10KWh (40Kwh * 25% = 10KWh).  10KWh over 24 hours works out to a continuous output of 416.66W (10,000w / 24h = 416.66w).  416.66W works out to 30.19A at 13.8v (416.66w / 13.8v = 30.19A), the typical float voltage for a 12v deep cycle battery.  Can your product produce this much power continuously in moderate wind conditions?

Your website also mentions that you can get 10KWh from each charged battery.  From our calculations above, we have determined that 10KWh is about 30.19A at 13.8V over a 24 hour period.  According to your website, you supply a group 27 battery with each kit.  A typical group 27 AGM battery is 100Ah at a 20 hour discharge rate.  This works out to 5A for  20 hours (100Ah / 20h = 5A), at 24 hours it would be 4.17A continuous (100Ah / 24h = 4.17A).  This is assuming that everything is 100% efficient.  For the 10KWh per battery statement on your website to be true, you would need a battery rated at 724.56Ah (30.19A * 24h = 724.56Ah).  At the very least, I think that it is misleading that you don't mention this fact on your website, as a single battery that large will be quite expensive and difficult to find.

Here is a list of references if they are of any interest to you:

Ohms law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohms_law

Watt's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt%27s_law

SI Prefixes (for converting kw to w):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix

Float and charging voltage for a typical 12v battery (AGM is included):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_acid_battery

Typical Group 27 Battery Specifications:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=27-AGM

Reference to Freetricity regarding KWh per day usage of a normal home and claims of producing 25% of that usage:
http://www.freetricity.com/whatcan.htm

Reference to Freetricity regarding 10KWh per charged battery:
http://www.freetricity.com/whatis.htm

Reference to Freetricity regarding the inclusion of a group 27 battery in each kit:
http://www.freetricity.com/howmuch.htm

Please feel free to check my math and my references and let me know of any errors, please include references to your facts in your response.

-Nathan

163 Posts
Dec 1, 2007 08:55 am
Re: Freetricity Facts

Quote

"If using the recommended AGM type deep cycle batteries you can easily dump 48 volts in it.***

*** But not at anything over 4 - 5 amps though!

That's where I became confused Steve. You said that your E2D produces 20 amps at 48 volts (that is around 1200 watts or 1.5 horsepower) but there is no current limiting device or diverter provided by you to prevent that from happening.

One easy way to limit the current would be to use a permanent magnet motor no larger than 1/16hp or around 50 watts.

A commercially available 1.5HP 12V DC motor would probably be about 20 inches long, 6 inches in diameter, and weigh about 50 pounds. That's probably a bit larger than what Troy has. I would guess that a 50 watt 12V DC permanent magnet motor is the largest commercially available motor that could fit into the box shown on the E2D at freetricity.com, but who knows what Steve and his 27 years of R&D have come up with.

Quote

And it's you who seems to running around in circles John. Tell us more about how it takes 4000 watts to charge the battery?

Nick ... is the acceptable?

Sure thing Steve. I was just paraphrasing what you have on your website. 10 amps for 10 hours at 120V is 12,000 watt hours. If your wind generator produces that in 3 hours then it has a 4000 watt or 5HP motor. And this all fits in a 3" by 8" box? Wow!

Nick,

Please don't delete the Stevie alias that we all know and love. But if you have to then my advice to him is get a new Hotmail address and create another alias. I just checked and the alias "Madison Priest" is available for him.

John

33 Posts
Dec 1, 2007 09:23 am
Re: Freetricity.com

First off I want to thank Nick. I have never bought anything from his company and the fact that he is letting me try to work out my problems with another companies product is pretty awesome. I hope I am helping you keep this thread on track Nick.

Now back to work. I am going to have good wind a little later today. John before I was not smart enough to read my book on my meter and know that I had things correct but after getting your directions I went back and the book agrees with exactly what you said on hooking it up. So far this morning I have only had about 5mph wind. Now I will say that hooking the unit up in series that is giving me about 7.5v. So far my apm reading is 0.00 but I am going to wait and report after wind is at least 10 and also when volts are 13ish. One interesting note. I have a 12v tail light like John suggested. I am getting a little spark when I touch that but no lighting. Thanks again for all the help on here and I am really hoping to get a definitive number today.

44 Posts
Dec 2, 2007 08:25 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts

Hey Troy,

How many 12 volt taillight bulbs have you fried so far?

When you have a decent wind and prop speed try a headlight instead ... but, you'll fry that too after about 5 seconds.

***

Nathan, thanks for the input but we are not advertising or selling a 10kwh stream. We are advertising and selling a system that is battery based and when that battery (typ 100ah deep cycle agm type) is charged it can, based on its own characteristics through our inverter deliver 10 hours of 10 amps. "Before the charging begins anew"!

Get it?

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