Freetricity.com

44 Posts
Dec 2, 2007 08:37 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


"Please don't delete the Stevie alias that we all know and love. But if you have to then my advice to him is get a new Hotmail address and create another alias. I just checked and the alias "Madison Priest" is available for him. -- John"

Geeze Nick ... try to play fair here or people will question your neutrality!

I dont want to have to hide my ip!



 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 07:42 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


Nathan, thanks for the input but we are not advertising or selling a 10kwh stream. We are advertising and selling a system that is battery based and when that battery (typ 100ah deep cycle agm type) is charged it can, based on its own characteristics through our inverter deliver 10 hours of 10 amps. "Before the charging begins anew"!

Get it?


Pay no attention to what Nathan says Stevie. He probably comes from old world physics and doesn't understand the zero-point physics behind your E2D.

In Nathan's world where transfer of power rules apply, in order to deliver 10 amps at 120V the 12V battery would have to be delivering 100 amps and hence it would be depleted in one hour and not ten.

I think I understand how your zero-point 100:1 gearing can get a 40 watt motor on your windmill to deliver 4000 watts for as long as you like, but how exactly do you manage to get a battery manufactured by someone else to deliver up ten times its rated capacity?

John
« Last Edit: Dec 3, 2007 07:47 am by john bodden »
 
33 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 08:14 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Arg. OK here I am getting squeezed out again. Since you asked Steve I am still on the original tail light bulb. You are right it doesn't light for much more than five seconds but the bulb is fine. When touched the bulb acts as if it is simply draining capasitors or something. Voltage in the 20s is quickly drawn down to below 10. Disconnect and the turbine spins back up. Seems like the bulb is to much of a load. That can't be right? Now this is why I am frustrated. You have 28 years as an engineer. When you were building, testing, quality control testing you had to take real messurments at some point. Like I said a spark does not mean anything to me. I have done the ultimate laymans test. It won't charge any of my batteries. Now in order to figure out why I would like to make a real test. Freetricity has told me that I can't connect a meter in series with the battery and test voltage. So even though that test seemed to indicate that I did have workable voltage now even that test is void. How do I test the unit under load? Hook what to what exactly so that I can see at this wind speed I have X volts and X amps? John the tail light thing was yours. Do my results give you any ideas? How many amps does it take to light that bulb?
 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 09:40 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Troy,

A typical automotive bulb for a tail light is around 5 watts, and in a 12V circuit it would draw about half an amp.

If your windmill does not deliver enough power to light up a 5 watt bulb then that explains why it can't charge a battery. Although I suspect the engineers at freetricity are going to tell you that now you have a bad bulb to go along with your bad battery.

John
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:11 am
Re: Freetricity Facts

I dont mind educating you at all John.

Let's start with what a 100 amp hour deep cycle battery can deliver.

Do you know what one it is and what it can deliver?

Troy, I suspect you are doing something wrong again. In light winds we fried both taillights and headlights. Don't worry we will figure it out. You dont have your meter hooked up while trying the light bulb test do you?





 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:24 am
Re: Freetricity Facts

I dont mind educating you at all John.

Let's start with what a 100 amp hour deep cycle battery can deliver.

Do you know what one it is and what it can deliver?


I only thought that I did Stevie. Obviously I was wrong. Again! 100 amp hours at 12 volts is 1200 watt hours or 1.2 kilowatt hours. Since your customers are able to get 10 kilowatt hours from a battery you must have put a zero-point physics 10-power multiplier into the inverter. It was silly of me to miss that the first time.

John
 
109 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:32 am
Re: Freetricity Facts

I only thought that I did Stevie. Obviously I was wrong. Again! 100 amp hours at 12 volts is 1200 watt hours or 1.2 kilowatt hours. Since your customers are able to get 10 kilowatt hours from a battery you must have put a zero-point physics 10-power multiplier into the inverter. It was silly of me to miss that the first time.

  Hello John!

  My impression is that you are in disbelief at some of the statements made by Steve.  Due to the rather umm..  "heated" tone that this thread has been known to take on, it would be great if you could leave out the antagonistic sentences.  The first sentences on how it looks like be 1.2KWH is certainly a great and valid point. 

  Thanks,
   -Nick

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:37 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


The different batteries and how they work!

1) Car batteries:

These are for short term high amp output to turn your cars engine over to start it. When your engine starts your cars alternator replaces that used current fast because you may just drive 2 miles and shut the car off to get gas and than have to restart it.

If your car has trouble starting the battery will die with moments.

A standard battery charger replicates your cars alternator and charges the battery up quick again (although not as quick as your alternator;

*** Not suited for deep cycle use and a standard battery charger will destroy deep cycle batteries ***

2) Marine or RV batteries:

These are actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries with most be much closer to car or starting batteries.

Not really true deep cycle and have a top charging voltage of 15.5 volts.

*** Not suited for E2D’s high voltage that will destroy them. ***

3) Deep cycle:

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type.

*** Suitable for most applications that have a maximum charge voltage of 15.5 volts ***

*** Not suitable for E2D’s High Voltage output as it will destroy the battery ***

4) AGM Deep cycle:


AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries
A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse.  These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:

Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries “HAVE NO” charge or discharge current limits.

*** The Only Battery That Can Be Safely Used With The E2D Version 3 1200 Series!!


 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:40 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Sorry Nick. You are correct. There is ample evidence for everyone to draw their own conclusions as to what freetricity is providing. There is no further need for me to state my views either explicitly or tongue-in-cheek. I will refrain from responding to any statements from Steve.
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:46 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


"It was silly of me to miss that the first time.

John"
________________________

Agreed!

A 100 amp hour battery works this way:

1) It can deliver 1 amp for 100 hours or 10 amps for 10 hours. Ergo the "100 amp hour" rating!

2) Our inverter is a 1200 watt inverter at 120 volts.
This is 10 amps!!

3) The inverter draws its 1200 watts (10 amps) from the battery as it is being used.

4) If it does this for one hour it is 1.2 kilowatt hours.

5) If it does it for 10 hours it is 12 kilowatt hours!

We advertise 10 kilowatt hours (instead of 12) each time the battery is fully charged because the inverter does consume some power doing its job.
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 10:58 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Good job Nathan, you can't argue with math if it is done correctly. This whole thread seemed to be based on fuzzy math and misunderstanding and misinterpreting results. It seems obvious just looking at the system that there is something wrong. A toy car won't give you highway performance. Also using a 24 hour period for your calculations to explain their numbers should make people think, since constant wind is questionable......  
« Last Edit: Dec 3, 2007 11:00 am by Tom Mayrand »
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 11:11 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


Except that we are not talking about constant wind not are we talking about a 10 kilowatt hour stream.

What we advertise and sell is a system that is predicated around a fully charged deep cycle 100 amp hour battery.

How long it takes to charge that battery and what that battery can deliver once charged is the essence of our system.

Nothing fuzzy about it!
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 11:32 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Well then, how long would it take to charge the battery. (Hrs, days, weeks.....). This seems to be the crux of what the thread is all about, how can your system can provide such power.
  Also if you understand batteries, then a 100 amp-hr battery will truly only provide 80 amp-hrs if properly discharged and maintained, in order for long life and for it to be continually recharged.
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 11:39 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


"Well then, how long would it take to charge the battery."

3 - 5 hours of moderate wind (8 - 12 mph) in most cases!

"Also if you understand batteries, then a 100 amp-hr battery will truly only provide 80 amp-hrs if properly discharged and maintained, in order for long life and for it to be continually recharged."

Not quite true with AGM's but again, that is one of the reasons we advertise 10 kilowatt hours and not 12!

Example:

My golf cart has 6 6 volt batteries making a 36 volt system.

8 hours on the charger lets me play 54 holes of golf or, almost 15 hours of use at a tremendous draw.
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Quick question, What gage wire do you use running from the unit to the charge controller or battery?
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:03 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


14 - 16 an appropriate gage at 12 - 40 volts at no more than 20 amps.

 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:10 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Good job Nathan, you can't argue with math if it is done correctly. This whole thread seemed to be based on fuzzy math and misunderstanding and misinterpreting results.

Tom,

There is nothing fuzzy about the math. It's just a case of confusing Power and Current. When a 12V battery supplies 10 amps of current it is providing 120 Watts of Power. When a 120V device draws 10 amps of current it is using 1200 Watts of Power. The freetricity "engineers" seem to think that 10 amps from a 12V battery can be directly translanted into 10 amps to a 120V inverter and hence their reasoning that you can get 10 kilowatt hours of power from a single 100AH battery. Looks like someone totally missed the Power (watts) = Volts (V) multiplied by Current (I) and it seems like I have been flogging a dead horse.

John
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:14 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

That's what makes it fuzzy....
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:33 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

So an overall output of 12000 Watts, over 10 hrs, would require at a recharging current of 1000 amps at 12 volts. You say you can deliver this 1000 amps in an average of 4 hrs. Then that would be a 250 amp service. I do not think that 14 to 16 gage wiring would handle this current. And if all you are providing is 20 amps max., then it would take 50 hrs at 12 volts to recharge your battery.
 And yes John B you are right, they are not taking into account that the 1200 Watts already incorporates the 10 amps of which they speak. If they pay attention to units, they would have 12000 Watt Amps, which doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: Dec 3, 2007 12:35 pm by Tom Mayrand »
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:44 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


"When a 120V device draws 10 amps of current it is using 1200 Watts of Power."

Exactly!!

And when it does it for 1 hour it is 1.2 kilowatt hours!

You're getting there!



 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:55 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

But this 120 volt device is ultimately drawing off a 12 volt battery. It is the power you can get from your battery, not the inverter that you should be dealing with. The inverter only changes the voltage and if you increase the voltage out by a factor of ten, you have to decrease the power coming from the battery by the same factor.....
« Last Edit: Dec 3, 2007 01:20 pm by Tom Mayrand »
 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 12:59 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


You lack a thorough understanding of how solid state inverters work!

 
44 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 01:03 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


I'm out ... have a good day everyone!
 
462 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 01:19 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

Yes and that 1200 Watts of power would translate to 100 amps at 12 volts which is the upper limit on your battery for one hours use. If it were 12000 Watts then your battery would have to supply 1000 amps.....
 
163 Posts
Dec 3, 2007 01:35 pm
Re: Freetricity Facts


"When a 120V device draws 10 amps of current it is using 1200 Watts of Power."

Exactly!!

And when it does it for 1 hour it is 1.2 kilowatt hours!

You're getting there!



The fact that we can agree on half of the equation is quite an improvement. Now lets move on to a cordial exchange about the other half.

If the inverter is delivering 1200 watts then it must be coming from the battery which is the power source. Since P = V*I and I = P/V, the current from the battery would be 1200/12 which is 100 amps.

100 amps is a very high current and that is why the leads from the inverter to the battery is a very large gauge cable.

Hopefully you can now see that a 1200 watt inverter would only be able to deliver 10 amps to a load from a 100AH battery for 1 hour before the battery is completely depleted.

If you agree with that then we can move forward.

John
 
462 Posts
Dec 4, 2007 10:52 am
Re: Freetricity.com

...looks like we got him thinking.....
 
2 Posts
Dec 4, 2007 10:54 am
Re: Freetricity Facts


You lack a thorough understanding of how solid state inverters work!




That's right, perhaps it's based on fuzzy logic, much like this thread.
TINSTAAFL
 
1 Posts
Dec 14, 2007 04:50 pm
Re: Freetricity.com

To add some info about Freetricity and i am not affiliated at all with the alternative energy store .  I am a contractor who sells energy efficient products and was intriqued by Freetricity for personal ise as well as business. I don't know how good the system works but i will say that the company service stinks.  I bought a business teritory almost 2 months ago and still have not recieved two of the three windmills i purchased.  I was told by Carl that a national add campain would be kicked off in the beggining of Nov. I was told i would recieve my products in two weeks,i spent $2000 on a home show and have over 50 people who want the unit but to date have not recieved it.

I would warn anyone interested in this as a business opportunity to look somewhere else.
 
33 Posts
Jan 3, 2008 08:34 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Hello all. Back a month or so ago I was on here and got some great help with my Freetricity unit. It would not charge my batteries. After I started asking on here the dealer finally got interested in helping me so I have been doing his test. He had promised to fix my problems or refund my money by Dec.30. When his test did not show what he wanted he stopped talking and no refund. Here is my test. First I took the batteries to Interstate Battery headquarters in Dallas and had them tested. They are fine and working well today however after weeks of 15 to 30 mph wind the Freetricity unit would not charge them. Next I spun the Freetricity unit with a drill and got 63v. Then I took a 12v step motor used to fold out a step in an RV. Put it on a 12v battery and measured that it put out .5amps and ran fine. Next I hooked it to the wind generator and spun it with the drill. At first nothing and I was very confussed. Finally left the drill going and discovered that after 5 to 10 seconds the step motor would finally start turning very slow. I then finally got a very sporadic reading of .09amp. Then I cracked it open. When it was shipped to me I was told it was an 8 to 1 geared unit that had the new super magnets added in like Steve talked about in here. Well when I opened it up no gears and no super magnets. There were only two magnets in the unit each one wrapped almost half way around the diameter of the casing. Not even any room for added magnets. The unit looks exactly like a 1/27th hp motor that you can buy from Grainger. In any case at the amperage that mine is producing it would take a lifetime to ever charge a battery. Thanks for the help that you guys tried to give me.
 
109 Posts
Jan 4, 2008 10:42 am
Re: Freetricity.com

Hello Troy!

I'm sorry to hear that your situation didn't get resolved to your satisfaction.  We certainly do appreciate you coming back and letting us know how things went. 

Best Wishes,
 -Nick

AltE
"Making Renewable Do-able"
http://www.altEstore.com/
 

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