Thomas Allen Schmidt's posts

One way you can estimate the size PV array needed to power the pumping station is to look at the power bill. It should state how many kWh's (kilo Watt hours) are used in a month.

For example:
Lets say the pumping station consumes 200 kWh's per month during pumping season. We all know that to be the same as 200,000 watt hours.

Now we need to know the number of hours of equivalent full rated power output from a PV module.
What that means is, a PV modules power output starts out low in the morning, gradually rises to near peak output at noon and then, power output starts going back down into the evening. So we add that all up and divide it by a PV modules output.

I am going to use 5 hours of equivalent full rated power output in my example.
200,000 watt hours divided by 30 days = 6,667 watt hours per 24 hours day/night. If the pumps run day and night on utility power then divide that in half for 3,334 watt hours per day if you want it to run from just PV power with no batteries for night time use. Or if you want a utility intertied system and want to offset nightime power consumption use the the full 6,667 watt hours.

3,334 watt hours divided by 5 = 667 watt PV array.

Remember this is just an example. Don't use these figures to size your PV array.

A review of the math:
200 x 1,000 = 200,000
200,000 / 30 = 6,667
6,667 / 2 = 3,334
3,334 / 5 = 667

The biggest things you need to know are:
kilowatthours consumed by the pumping station for one, twelve hour day and, the number of hours of equivalent full rated power output of a PV module per day in your area.

One thing I would be leary of is ripple.
PV power is pure DC as with batteries but ac tranformer/rectifiers create a ripple that might have an adverse effect on a PV charge controller.
On the bottom of page 14 of the Prostar 15 manual it says that an alternate power source can be used for testing purposes but it does not specify if it can tolerate ripple from an ac transfomer/rectifier indefinately.

Unless someone else can give a better answer, I would suggest getting in contact with a Morningstar tech. rep..

Would something like this suit your needs?
http://www.powerstream.com/dcups-30

Well, I for one am glad it had nothing to do with the Surrette S 530's. I just bought 8 of them a couple a years ago. I am hoping to, not even think about having to change them until 2026.

So, the Solar Boost 2000E's would appear to the culprit. Let me see if I got this right.

 In order for Miss Sally to set the high voltage limit set point of her Solar Boost 2000E, the batteries have to be at that high limit voltage?

Or make an additional purchase of the device that Mr. Ames, so graciously gave us a link to, in order to set the high voltage set point at any battery state of voltage?

And I thought it was wierd to, have to, have a conversion chart to set my old Trace C-30-A on/off type charge controllers high and low limit set points.

Thanks Mr. Ames

When the storm comes, how does the house fair whose foundation is built on sand, as compared to the house whose foundation is built on rock?
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/21jan_severespaceweather.htm?list755053
The more dependent we become on a thing, anything, the more we miss it when its gone. I guess its a good thing for the human race that it can readily adapt to changing situations. Still, what to do with all of those dead bodies occurring over such a short period of time. 4.5 billion over 100 years. Give or take .5 billion and a decade or two.

Just so you know, where I live there is very few people I can relate to, in person, about this stuff. Everytime I try its as though I am speaking Greek to a Chinaman. Also, my writing skills needed serious help so... I put 2 and 2 together and luckily found the Alt-E store forum.
Thanks Alt-E Store!


I don't know if this will help you any but here it is anyway.
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/fieldinvest.pdf

In an ideal world, all things being equal budgetwise, and always rounding up, I would take the watthour load estimated over a 24 hour period and convert it into amphours at a nominal voltage.
Then multiply that by at least 5 to get the size battery bank needed. Then I would take that same watthour estimate and divide it by - the number of hours of equivalent full rated charge per day - with a given PV array orientation for a given region on the shortest day of the year. This may seem bare bones to some but glutonus to others. To each their own.

Example:
Estimated load - 4,000 watthours or 4 kW h's over 24 hour day/night cycle. 24 volts nominal system.

4000/24x5= 833 amphours @ 20 hour rate minimum battery bank.
(I might would go up to a 1200 amphours bank for future use and/or more days of autonomy.

2 hours of equivalent full rated charge from a PV module.
4000/2= 2000 watt PV array 
(I might even double this. A lot would depend on site specifics.) The idea of course is to replace what was taken from the batteries as soon as possible.

Undoubtedly though, budget restraints can and will come into play for a lot of people, including myself. Personally, I am disappointed with the PV industry and its pricing. I had expected better prices as PV become more main stream. Oh well, I guess that was just a pipe dream.

*** I have the Solarboost Charge Controller set at a higher average, of 15.2v (vs default 14.2) given the winter season and the shorter hours, to make the most of any bright sunshine.

Where you use the word "average" does that mean the same as high limit? 15.2 is an equalizing voltage on a 12 volt nominal system. Are you having to replace lost water very often? Or alternately, are the batteries reaching 15.2 on a regular basis?

***The cells have similar sp. gr, one battery all are exactly the same. One battery one is significantly lower and always has been by 0.4 this time. This is where the cables go on to the positive terminal. I should equalize after I charge?? (will be charging from gas generator)

Technically, equalizing is done when cells show very different values, but to answer your question I would run the ICE genset at night and let it take over the loads as well, just to get more from the fuel burned. Assuming there are VAC loads that it can power directly.

This is curious. I started out using a hydrometer while still in the learning process. Now I just rely on a Bogart TriMetric. I just know from years of compiling data from it, first in a log book and then mentally, that my batteries are being treated and working properly. Not very scientific I know but it works for me. Once a month I run an equalizing charge on them anyway. The Trace C-60 has an automated function for this, all I have to do is initiate it, and it resets when done.
 Just a note, when my bank of S-530's arrived I checked the voltage with a multimeter and they were all at 6.3+ and, just out of curiosty, I cleaned the dust off of my hydrometer and checked the sp. gr. on two of them, it showed them as being low. I had always doubted its accuracy anyway. Thats why I quit using it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I went down and checked mine with a hydrometer and it showed conflicting data as compared to the TriMetric. I think as time goes by and you get more comfortable with maintaining your own system, you will learn your systems characteristics and you'll settle into a routine that your confident in. Of course knowledge is power. One of things, in a manner of speaking, that "settled my mind" about dealing with batteries is when I happen to read in an old high school chemistry text book that "batteries do not store electricity, they convert electricity into a chemical energy and store that until such time as they or called upon to deliver electricity again." It worked for me anyway.   

A few more more question. (I don't mean to be nosey Miss Sally, just trying to learn for myself what is going on with your system)
When you sized the battery bank, did you size it for what your needs are or for the size PV array that is recharging it and, what percentage of depth of discharge per cycle, did you plan on?   

Thanks Mr. Hall.
It took a little browsing around but I found them, and here they are. A pallet of 20 - KD 180 GX LP's, $13,680.00
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/bulk-solar-panels-by-the-pallet.html

Would you happen to know where these are manufatured by any chace?

Here is a place that appears to still carry the Photowatt PW1000 100 watt PV modules. The measurements are the same as the 105's but obviously the power outout is lower.
http://www.bitterrootsolar.com/solar/pw100.htm
I have not contacted these people, so there is a chance that they do not sell these anymore.

http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm

Maybe this site will help to clear things up a little.
Take notice of the volts per cell on the graph, how it shoots straight up at first upon the beginning of recharge then starts to level off more or less. Compare that line to the specific gravity line and how it does not start a significant incline until voltage is much higher.

How do the SG readings compare from cell to cell? Are they the same or very close to each other? Is the electrolyte level correct? Just how cold is the environment where the batteries are kept? What is the high voltage set limit on the charge controller?
Its a possibility that the voltage is high as shown on a meter when charging starts in the morning, but the amphours replaced are still low.
Compare the SG readings and voltage shown, first thing in the morning when charging starts to evening measurements as charging comes to an end. 
Most importantly, keep us up to date. I for one would like to know how this all turns out for you. I just bought some of those same batteries recently too.

Keeping this up to date with a little, in the news, trivia.
http://www.pvtech.org/news/_a/underwriters_laboratories_expands_its_photovoltaic_technology_center_of_exc/

When it comes time to replace the battery bank you choose, do ether of those suppliers offer an incentive to take the old ones back with the purchase of a new set? Is there a core charge? A disposal charge? How long has each brand been on their respective shelves waiting to be sold?
One thing is for certain, you will have to replace them one day. You could try one brand this time and the other brand next time. You say one dealer offers both brands.
Even after weighing and counting and discounting and researching until your eyelids feel like they are glued to your eyeballs, it sometimes just takes a leap of Faith.
I have gone from marine deep cycle cranking batteries to, 8-D "big rig" cranking batteries to, Trojan T-105's to, the current set of Surrett 580's. All off grid.
The biggest thing I didn't like about the T-105's was the offset terminal posts breaking off. Thats why I'll never buy T-105's again as long as I live. The cranking batteries well, that was just wrong to start with. So far the Surretts have been holding there own. Its really to early to tell. They have only been in service for 2 years. The plan is to get at least 20 years out of them. Even with the broken posts on the T-105's I got 7 years out of those by the way. I could have probably gotten more years out of them put during the last 2 winters, they depleted very rapidly. It was ether replace the batteries or, purchase an ICE genset. The later I absolutely refuse to do.
Almost forgot!
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/BattIntro.htm

http://www.photowatt.com/products/distributors/#c290
According to this site, there are no North American distributors.

Although this company in Colorado says otherwise. Photowatt.
http://www.nwpwr.com/products/solar_panels/photowatt.htm

And this one in Oregon. Matrix. http://kingsolar.com/catalog/mfg/matrixsolar/index.html

And this one in California. Reliagen.
http://partsonsale.com/photowatt.html

It would seem that Photowatt has many names in the U.S.A., maybe it has to do with officialities or something.

I have yet to find the PW1000. They may have been discontinued.
You'll have that with PV modules. One particular wattage never seems to stay around for very long. Can anybody tell Mr. Anderson why, class?

Which is means a seller can sell an item for whatever price they believe they can get away with. In all fairness though there is a chance that sellers in one region can sell the same item for less than in other regions.

Massachusetts (Northeast)
http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Panels/Solar-Panels-by-the-Pallet/Kyocera-KD180GX-LP-180W-18V-Solar-Panels-PALLET/p6972/

Arizona (Southwest)
http://store.solar-electric.com/kyocerakc170gt.html

Florida (Southeast)
http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=62

I've yet to find a seller in the, Northwest, region that sells this particular item. Not that there isn't one mind you.
Highest to lowest, a difference of $2745.00

Buyer beware!
http://www.solarbuzz.com/companylistings/unitedstates.htm

In a perfect world I would agree with Mr. Hall's remark of "your doing it backwards." I would like to add that, when I started out with PV, I was reluctant to peel off several thousands of dollars for a minimal amount of wattage at a low nominal voltage. Budget can have an strong influence on the decision to go PV.
 
We, my family and I, had lived off grid without any electricity what so every for the better part of 25 years. So you can see that electricity of any kind wasn't the temptation for us that it is to most others. It was more of a luxury to us. Much in the same way an indoor flushing toilet is compared to an outhouse. They both serve the same purpose, only one is way more pleasent ot use.

We started out small. I learned as much as possible first, mainly from the pages of Homepower magazine which prior to them was the Mother Earth News. Two MSX 77's, a C-30-A charge controller (both were new to the market at the time) and, a couple of "18 wheeler" cranking batteries. Of which, the two MSX 77's are still in service. The C-30-A is collecting dust. The two batteries, traded in. We learned from these items just how much power could be collected from PV in the real world, as opposed to advertising. They are actually pretty darn close when real world output is averaged out. As you might guess our system has grown substantially since then.
http://www.homepower.com/home/
Here is a site that can give you a fair approximation of how many - hours of equivalent full rated charge - per day in your region depending on PV module orientation. What this means is -�  from the time a module first starts making power in the morning until it stops in the evening divided by its rated output.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/

Lets say its a yearly average of 3 hours per day with the PV modules facing solar south and set at latitude all year. One - 200 watt module multiplied by 3 hours is 600 watts hours or .6 kilowatt hours. If your charging a battery with this at 12 volts nominal that would be 50 amphours. To give you any idea of what this could do. One 50 watt light bulb at 12 volts takes 4.2 amps. That means you could burn that light for about 12 hours, in a perfect world. There are losses due to naturally occurring inefficiencies in turning sunlight into electricity, conducting it through wire to a charge controller then into a battery and then to a switch and finally the bulb itself. If the battery and the wire is sized right, you should still be able to get close to 11 hours. There are just so many factors that could change the outcome of this, the greatest of all is weather, so its still a matter of averages.
As for the battery size, that to can be a matter of budget restraints. If you want to go ahead with this as a way of, "sticking your toes into the water before taking the big plunge," I would recommend
1 - 200 watt PV module or closest wattage equivalent.
2 - 220 amphour 6 volt flooded cell lead acid batteries wired in series for 12 volts nominal.
1 - MPPT type charge controller. I suggest an MPPT type mainly because when PV modules get upwards of a 200 watt output its voltage is typically higher than what is required for a 12 volt nominal system.
Again, budget restraints can come into play. Be sure to read and understand the ratings of any equipment you purchase for your PV system. Here are some links.
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/
http://www.solarenergy.org/resources/store.php
I hope something in what I wrote is helpful to you.

First, take note of the date. A lot has changed in 15 years. Then scroll down until you find "barrier #3".
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/DOC/Interconnect.doc
Of coarse this document has more to do with grid interconnect issues, but...
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/PV_INSTALL_PAPER.pdf
More recently and this primarily.
http://www.irecusa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/IRECGeneral/2007AnnualMeeting/VentreIRECSept242007_final.pdf
But as Chris pointed out, "You inspector, as the authority having jurisdiction, will look for "listed" equipment-"
Do these PV modules you are referring to have an IEC listing?

What if the true "problem" is one that nobody wants to acknowledge? Lets say for example that the true "problem" is the existence of an additional 4.5 billion people that where not here a little more than 100 years ago. That, additional 4.5 billion people are not living off of just thin air, they are consumming natural resources.
(By the way, I would like to point out here for the sake of driving my point, that it took thousands of years from whatever humble beginning humans had on Earth up to the 1900's for human population to reach 2 billion people.)

We all speak of balances in nature. How too much or too little of one or more aspects within nature can upset the balance, having the potential of crashing to one side. For example: the recent talk about honey bees being on the decline. We all know what would happen without honey bees to pollinate plants.
Now think about the mass of 4.5 billion people. 4.5 times an average of 160 pounds each = 720 billion pounds of mass that, for the most part, only consumes natural resources while doing very little to give back to nature. I am not just referring to food and feces but all natural resource; metals, minerals, fossil fuels, air, and water, etc., etc..

 It would seem that when I bring this subject up there is the written equivalent of "selective hard of hearing" and "looking the otherway." The one thread the actually got some response also got a "repremand" from our illustrious coordinators here at Alt-E store when the subject eventually turned to religion and why wouldn't it? Has religion not been with us, here on Earth, for thousands of years as well? I can't be 100% certain but I don't think we have cruel and inhumane Inquisitions to worry about anymore. Enough about that.

Back to the additional 4.5 people on Earth that began to "arrived" a little more than 100 years ago and, that began consuming Earths natural resources.
Well, that says it all now doesn't it?
Imagine if your at home with your family of 4 and over the course of a year 8 more people come to live in that same house. Of course now we have 12 living that house but how long will it stay at 12 before there is 13, 14 and if this is happening at all of your neighbors homes as well?
I wonder if things had been different. I am going to inject a little little si-fi here. What if a little more than 100 years ago, a vast fleet of star ships carrying the remnants of a people whose sun had gone super nova or they had exhausted their planets natural resources to the point that life could no longer exist there. Imagine if they had left their Star system headed for Earth. Would we welcome that additional 4.5 billion immigrants, over 100 years, to Earth as readily as we have our own?
There are those that would argue that 4.5 billion more people over 100 years is insignificant. That this planet could easily support 12 billion or more. What if that additional 5.5 billion arrived over the next 50 or so years? Again, consuming Earths natural resources while doing little to replace them. Would this not, at least, unbalance the scales?
The one thing I haven't mention is the amount of unnatural pollution these people, we people, are leaving in or "wake". Of course we all know that one ansewer is for all of us humans to live off of the Earth more responsibly but does that responsibility stop at just sustainability and cleaner energy? Maybe its time we put away our "toys", before "Mother" nature does it for us but of corase, what would happen to that additional 4.5 billion people?

Sounds as though you have it figured out allready. The greatest concern is that they do not bubble and the best way to achieve this is by keeping the voltage down to no higher than 13.2 volts at 12 vdc nominal provided that *cold weather isn't a factor. 50 watts of PV should do nicely. Check the modules "working" voltage, no need for an 18 volt module when a 14 volt or below would do the trick. Any solid state PV charge controller that can be set to a high voltage of 13.2 at 12 vdc nominal will do. The old off/on relay type PV charge controllers have the potential of "sticking" with age, I wouldn't recommend that type for an un-maned system particularly. Mind you this is just for a storage maintenance charge. It would be a really good idea, I dare say necessary, to invest in hydro caps. 18 months is a long time without supervision. Unless of course these are sealed batteries. You may want to look into desulfators as well. It would be a good idea too, when they come out of a long storage like that to; top off the water and run them through an equalizing charge before putting them into service. Be sure all connection are clean and tight and that any exposed terminals are coated to resist corrosion as well be sure that all loads are removed from the batteries.
http://www.solarhaven.org/BatteryDesulfator.htm
http://www.semarine.com/store/product.php?productid=315&cat=212&page=1
*If cold weather is a factor it might be necessary to bump up the voltage a little, say 13.6 but definitely no higher than 14 because this is when bubbling starts and with no one there to replace water in the electrolyte well, you know the rest I am sure.

If you are preparing to have a PV array installed on or at your home for the purpose of providing your home with that electricity and you want to get state offered incentives to help pay for it, then it will need a permit and henceforth an inspection and if the inspector is familiar with residential PV systems he will be looking for the UL stamp of approval not just on the PV modules but everything in the system. I cannot say that it is a "must have" but I do know it will raise the eyebrows of an inspector experienced with residential PV systems if he doesn't see the UL stamp of approval. Best bet if you are going this route, check with your local inspections office first.
Here is a place you can start your search.
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/
Across the top of the page, look for "search" and type in something like "UL listed PV modules".


Don't forget about your homes insurance policy, they might have something to say about the PV system as well.

Don't give up Roger! Theres more than one way to, err, well, skin a cat. Not that I go around skinning cats or anything. Any way the point is, as Mr Hall pointed out, there is other options. His being probably the most cost effective. There is still the issue of that wire run. I am sure Alt-E Store has a chart or something to look at that will allow you to determine wire size and cost. Have you considered 48 volts nominal?
 Another option that comes to mind, albeit not as cost effective, yet, is to produce Hydrogen gas as close as possible to the "stream genny." Then in turn store and utilize the Hydrogen as an energy source.
A place to start.

http://www.geocities.com/hydrogenpower1/experiments/simple_electrolyzer.html
More to read,
http://www.h2eco.org/links.htm
and still more.
http://www.hydrogen.gov/

Oops, I actually was describing the wrong thing. I had describe a G.E. Inductrol which is little more than a large variable transformer not a power factor corrector. The Inductrol wouldn't help you with the power factor.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/Dispatcher?REQUEST=PRODUCTS&id=inductro&lang=en_US
Just as well, the Gematic starts at around $12,000 for one large enough for a whole house and it would require specific information about the power problems to G.E. engineers to build just it right. They do however build smaller versions.

I know what you mean about the weather. Here in the southeast, hurricane season last from June to November and grid power gets "knocked out" over a large area at least once a year. Thankfully we live off grid so that doesn't affect us. The worst one for us was Floyd and all the rain it dumped. I was knee deep in water unbolting battery cables in order to move the batteries "up hill." Good thing too because they would have been submerged. Flood water came up to within a few inches of the charge controller (it just happened to be the lowest thing bedsides the batteries).

Don't know what to tell you that will resolve your dilemma. Maybe you should try going "cold turkey" from electricity for while, sort of a pilgrimage. Find your inner "offgrid" self. Mankind lived on the planet Earth for several thousands of years without all of these energies we take fro granted today, There really is no reason why we have to have all of these energies. In truth, we just want them.
Best of luck to you!

Its been said that to live off grid cost about the same as a life time of electric bills. It was best left to those that would otherwise have to pay an additional fee of several thousands of dollars to run miles of poles and wires for a dead end single dwelling utilities service.
If you really want to go off grid then just do it. Get things set up as best as can and then, take a leap of faith. I think its good that your concerned with efficiencies and all but I wouldn't beat myself up over it, but that just me.
I guess LP or natural gas is not an option?

120 kW h's per month:
120,000 / 31 = 4,000
4,000 / 24 = 220
220 X no less than 2 = Get yourself 8 - 6 volt, 220 amphour true deep cycle golf cart batteries and wire them two sets of four in series, those two sets in parallel for 440 amphours at 24 volts nominal. If it were me I'd multiply by 5.
Since you can figure out all that other stuff about the grid this stuff should be child's play to you but just in case. That same 4 kW h's per day could be produced with as little as a 1 kW PV array. There are quite a few extenuating circumstances to figure into the equations such as, but not limited to; region, season, local terrain, and weather or not the Sun is shinning. I'd go with a 2 kW PV array. I'd have surplus power for fans and stuff in the summer months but generator runtime would be kept down to a minimum during winter. Thats just the nature of PV. They "make hay" while the Sun shines.
As for that power factor correction, G.E. makes one large enough for a household service.
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/capacitors/en/switch_power_factor.htm
Its little more than a variable rate transformer on the same shaft with a 3 quarter wound motor controlled by a sensor. Runs for about $10,000. I think. I'd have to look into that some more to be more precise but I figure you allready know all about that stuff.

That does clear things up quite a bit. You have a water powered genny that produces a nominal 12 vdc and you want to dedicate that electric power to 12 vdc water heater elements only.
There is no need for the dc to dc converter unless you were to use a 24 vdc genny on 12 vdc elements trying to overcome a line loss because of an unusually long wire run. Is this the case? How long will the wire run be from genny to elements?

As for which size element would be best...
This would have to be determined by the highest amperage anticipated but you don't want to size it to big. It may take a little experimentation. What is the manufacture rating? It would seem that this is proportional to water speed. Do you know your water speed?
Example; if the genny consistently produces 8 amps at 12 volts nominal, then there is a possibility that a 240 watt element may "act" as a dead short and prevent the genny from spinning but this is the smallest element I could find. Also, depending on the size of the water heater tank(s) and hot water usage, you may not need a thermostatic switch but the tank(s) should have a properly working T/P valve that can vent safely without harm to personnel or property. A whistle up high maybe, like the old steam boats. Too much T/P the whistle blows releasing T/P, the tank "calls" for  make up water, etc., etc.. As for the relay you mentioned, if it were me, I would wait and see just how well the one preformed first but if your insistant on having two tanks, each with one element(?) it will take a transfer relay rated for 20 amps dc. There are a couple of ways to achieve this. Ideally you would not want a transfer relay with a coil that would stay energized to maintain current to one or the other element. This could get costly. It might be more cost effective to utilize one larger tank. It will all depend on several factors such as those I mentioned above.   
http://www.survivalunlimited.com/diversionloads.htm
http://www.whistleman.com/html/how_whistles_work.html

Depending on where you live, what region, and which season it happens to be, you can only expect a few hours per day (0 to 7) of equivalent full rated power from a PV module.
For example; the extreme of 7 hours, might only be found in the U.S., in the southwest region during the summer with the PV module aimed directly at the Sun. So given that, IF what you have is a 21 watt PV module, there would only be 147 watthours available. A 40 watt bulb might last 3.5 hours. IF you live in the southwest of the U.S. and, IF its summertime and, IF thats a 21 watt PV module.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/

Goto this site and try: average, annual and, flat plate tilted south at latitude. Click view map and find your region.
This will give a fairly accurate, number of hours of equivalent full rated power per day from a PV module.
Play around with this a little and you can see just how much and how little to expect from photovoltaics.  Like Mr. Gorman says, "solar power ain't magic." Personally speaking, at $5.00 per watt still in the box, not installed, I can't understand how the PV industry stays afloat. To do most anything appreciable with PV one would need to acquire a loan as well as government assistance in whatever form available, or just be plain filthy stinkin' rich. That government assistance applies more so to federal moneys for commerce and industry than it does for the private citizen and state moneys but thats to be expected now isn't it. We can have the U.S. government showing favoritism to its private citizens over commerce and industry, now can we?

Without the mention of specific equipment I can only give a generalized answer.
It depends. Not all charge controllers and micro-hydro genny's are created the same.
In order to have a constant specific voltage going to a battery bank from a charge controller fed by a source that can fluctuate, there would need to be a resistor bank of some sort, as well as a means of monitoring voltages and, the ability to automatically add or take away resistance as needed to maintain the desired voltage/amperage.

One of the things that helped me to understand rechargeable batteries was the understanding of the concept that batteries do not store electricity. They do however convert electric energy into a chemical energy and store that until such times as electric energy is "called" for then it converts it back from chemical energy. For a price. One can never fully recover absolute 100% of the electric power stored as chemical power into a battery from that battery.

Another thing was/is reading and comparing battery manufactures spec. sheets. If they don't make a spec. sheet that I can compare to other manufactures batteries, then I don't even consider their product. They could lay claim to have the greatest battery every in the world but if they don't print a spec. sheet that I can use to compare with, they don't exist. Its that simple.

Cost is always an issue. I learned the hard to stay away from those "big box" stores and the marine deep cycle batteries. When it come to a stand alone PV system, those batteries are not worth it. Two - 6 volt golf cart batteries are better than any, one - 12 volt marine deep cycle battery even though the cost of 2 golf cart batteries is extremely higher. Over the "long haul" the golf cart batteries will last longer if treated right. Those so called marine deep cycles batteries are really not true deep cycle. They are in fact a cranking battery with a really high cranking reserve. Not the same thing. It has to do with the way the plates inside are formed.

Search the internet. Learn as much as you can about batteries. What could it hurt? Being the informed buyer is better than feeling like you've been ripped off. Right? Who knows, you might be the inventor of an even better battery.

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Biographies/VoltaBio.htm

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/electricity/batteries/index.html

Thank you Brian. You have made a good point. Often times I have simply wrote that one should "take the electric power needs over a 24 hour period" when determining a battery bank size. That is some what vague.

(Please keep in mind that I have kept such things as budget restraints out of the equations. I feel that to be a personal matter for the individual to compute.)

More precisely, one should sum up the electric power needs over a 24 hour period, worst case scenario. If it is known that there will be a day when electric power usage is going to be higher than average over the winter months, then use that days electric power needs. (Unless one lives on the equator of course.) I use the winter months because these days are shorter and the occurrence of inclement wheather is more predominate.
Of course this is mainly all about sizing an "offgrid" battery bank with a stand alone PV system, where a minimum of backup generator usage is desired.
Even with this, there could be weeks during the winter months that a stand alone PV battery charging system just can't keep a battery bank fully charged no matter how big the PV array is.

The multiplying factor of 5 that I use is synonymous with 20%. 20% of 100 is 5.
For Example: if after summing up the electric power needs over a 24 hour period, worse case scenario, the total is 1.5 kW h's (kiloWatthour's) then the math is as follows -
1.5 kW h's X 1000 = 1500 watt hours
1500 watt hours / 12 (nominal battery voltage) = 125 amp hours, bare minimum.
125 amp hours X 5 = 625 amp hours at 12 volts nominal.
It always best to round up any fractional numbers to the next highest whole number. Even in the case of 1.5 kW h's. Of course this translates into higher cost $ as well (sorry, couldn't help myself.)
What that factor of 5, that I use, does is help to keep the battery within the top 20% of full charge. This is what is known as shallow cycling, which helps with having an overall longer battery life. It also will help give several days of power with little to no sunshine (in a stand alone PV system.)
Any type of re-chargable battery is made with a predetermined number of cycles starting with a full 100% charge, then down to a 100% discharge, then back to 100% re-charged, that is one full cycle. Treating a battery this way though will mean having to replace it, a lot, sooner than if one were to increase the size of the battery bank and shallow cycle it.

All of this is concerning discharging a battery bank but just as important if not more so is recharging it. If it is at all possible, what is taken from a battery bank should be replaced ASAP. This too helps the over all life span of the battery. Nothing will ruin a battery faster than sitting there totally discharged. With the exception maybe of a Ni Fe.
http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129

After all is said and done, when sizing a battery bank, its better to error too big! Than to error too small.

" I had to wire in er thir 24 volt setup to get what was needed for the 12 volt charge."

You might have what is known as a "cold" solder joint. It looks like its made right but it could be that it doesn't have sufficient continuity, or one or more diodes have ruptured. Do you have a way to check the diodes?

If it were me, I would start back at the beginning, making sure I didn't miss anything.
Is your electric meter set properly to read the voltage of direct current and is it working properly? Good battery in meter? Probe leads in the correct holes?
Have you checked each PV modules output individually, no wire, no (cold) solder joints, just using your electric meters probes right to the negative and positive terminals in the J-box? in bright, midday sunshine with the PV module aimed at the sun? This will give you clue as to the condition of the diodes. Compare the oreintation of the diodes in all four PV modules, check that all of the diodes are oriented the same from module to module. Check for any diodes that might be discolored in any way.
 
Ok, so now we know your PV battery charging system is 12 vdc nominal. We know that Kyocera KC130TM PV modules are considered to be 12 vdc nominal output.
So, speaking simply, there should be four negative wires, one from each modules negative, and four positive wires, one from each positive, for a total of 8 wires.
Ideally there would be a combiner box that would bring all 4 of the negative wires together as one, and it would bring all 4 of the positive wires together as one while fusing each positive individually first. Then we would leave the combiner box with one negative and one positive and go to the charge controller.
If all of the diodes are in correct working order and all of the modules are producing full or near full open circuit voltage, as checked in dividually, and there are no "cold" solder loints and no blown fuses in the combiner box, you should have 520 watts at 12 vdc nominal at the charge controller.

Wow, looks like nobody wants to touch this one. Ok, I'll bite.

Normal - Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal.

Yeah well normal, that has many perspectives. What was normal to Adolf Hitler isn't normal to George Bush. George Bush didn't commit genocide anyway.

So, are you saying you have your own established electric grid infrastructure and you want to go solar, or are you on the grid and you want to go solar?
It matters because, well you see thats where your perspective of normal and mine comes in. If your on the grid and want to go solar, I would say, nix the grid and learn to live without electricity first, then go solar.
On the other hand.
The way you asked the question would lead me to believe that you own your own electric power plant producing electricity for sale. Whats your plants fuel? Coal? Nuclear? Wood chips? Other?
If this is the case then I would say, nix the fuel, all of it should be solar.
I don't know, maybe you think thats abnormal?
Either way, I hope you have stacks of jack, cuase your gonna need it all. Solar, especially PV, ain't cheap.

What many people do not want to believe is that they are being used to make a select few people filthy stinking rich.
The idea that, if I could convince everyone of 6.5 billion humans on Earth to send me one penny: that would equate to $65 million dollars. Just one penny each! But we all know that could never happen. To make that many people agree that they all needed to do the same thing. Or could it happen? How many humans on Earth would you say are paying an electric bill? 1 billion? 2 billion? 4.5 billion perhaps? $4.5 billion people paying an average of what? $50 dollars a month? Possibly 2.25 trillion dollars a month. What is the United States governments trade deficit now with the Wall Street bail out? 9 trillion dollars? Small "frys" compared to what electric power producers might turn over in one year under those circumstances.
Similar things could be said about transportation and crude oil. Food and water. The air we breath. No air isn't up for sale, not yet anyway, bur clean air is. A healthier environment on Earth is up for sale now (RE). But how? How does one convince the multitudes of people on Earth that that they must work to make money and spend the money on fossil fuels and all the seemingly wonderful things (and not so wonderful things like, pollution) it brings us, in order to live on Earth. Do we take God out of the equation? I ask this because it would seem to be a firm believe among all religions that God provided everything we humans needed to live on Earth. We humans have provided everything needed to destroy it. Constantly taking from the Earth. Never putting anything worthwhile back into the Earth.
Who cares right? As long as we can all, at least dream of being filthy stinking rich, right? Isn't that what life on Earth is all about now?
Pity Earth, It has become little more than a means to an end. Who knows, maybe one day, billions of years from now, when our Sun has cooled and the Earths iron core has cooled, there might be sentient beings on Venus having this same discussion, while in the news their scientist are getting the first pictures back from a cold and desolate planet and the people are all curious, was there every any life on Earth. Those people would never know that the most important thing to the people of Earth, was money. That those people judged themselves and others by how much wealth the had or didn't have. That they never ceased to pull natural resources from their planet in order to become rich. Those supposed people of Venus would never know these things because all they would see on that Earth would be the similar to what we are seeing on Mars today. A possible means to an end. Are there any resources to to get rich from? Of course that is not what will be advertised. The advertisement will not say, "Make me rich, buy my product." No, there will be some other promise to some greater goal. "More beauty." "Greater health and vitality." "More energy." "A better life for everyone." "A cleaner future." Appealing to people vanities and desires. Temptations of the flesh in all of its forms of indulgence.
Bottom line. Its all about, profits.

I am not sure that I understand what you have done when you say "the positive and negative from each pare together"

You wired two sets of two PV modules in series to increase the voltage (ie; 12 to 24 volts nominal) and then wired those two sets in parallel to increase amperage, is this correct?
What voltage do you want to accomplish?
If 24 volts nominal, wire the pos. from module "A" to the neg. of module "B". Then take the remaining pos. of module "B" and the remaining neg. of module "A" to the appropriate terminals on the charge controller. Repeat procedure for remaining two modules.