XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

16 Posts
Sep 21, 2009 10:02 pm
XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Trying to get clarity if the Centurion 8kw generator has the start/shut-down functionality needed  to interface with the XW AGS controls. Is anyone out there using this combination?

The XW AGS specs mention that it is compatible with many "Popular" generators and with either two-wire or three-wire start controls. It would be nice to mention what is considered popular.

I have looked at Centurion webpage but not much refers to auto start controls with the exception of sensing "loss of power".
 
3 Posts
Sep 23, 2009 08:47 am
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

i just did it with a Guardian 8kw unit (same thing)
you have to get the xantrex upgrade tool to load the latest firmware into the auto-start.
you will need to choose option 13 which will become available when you do the upgrade.
I broke 1 leg of the 2 wire (240vac) start wiring.
 
16 Posts
Sep 27, 2009 08:23 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Owen, Thanks for the feedback. Let me make sure I am on the same page. When I call Xantrex and mention to them that I need a "Upgrade tool" for their AGS they will know what I am asking for?

Although I am a pretty good computer guy, how is the AGS firmware loaded to the AGS?

Last thing. Can you explain more about suing 1 leg instead of the 2 wire?

This is the last leg of my fully Off-Grid Xantrex 2.46kw install. So far all is operating just fine. With winter coming upon us I would really like to get this Centurion (Generac) up and running.
 
3 Posts
Sep 28, 2009 07:25 am
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Harold,
i would call Xantrex and just tell them you need the XWS configuration tool, tell them you are trying to use a 2 wire generator and need option 13 on the auto-start controller in order for it to work.

the wires are N1 and N2 off of the generator.
yellow and blue, it needs 240VAC.
breaking the 240VAC (only one leg) that will close the start relay on the generator.

Owen
 
16 Posts
Sep 28, 2009 06:40 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Owen,
So far so good. I called Xantrex and asked about the AGS firmware update. They offered me a loaner configuration tool for just s/h for a 30 day use.

Any heads up you can provide on the procedure for the firmware update would be appreciated. They told me to give them a call but my off-grid system is really out there in the boonies. No phone, no wireless signal either.

 
3 Posts
Sep 28, 2009 10:16 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Well....
i had one of the guys do it, sorry.
 
6 Posts
Oct 15, 2009 11:39 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Harold,
i would call Xantrex and just tell them you need the XWS configuration tool, tell them you are trying to use a 2 wire generator and need option 13 on the auto-start controller in order for it to work.

the wires are N1 and N2 off of the generator.
yellow and blue, it needs 240VAC.
breaking the 240VAC (only one leg) that will close the start relay on the generator.

Owen

Hello Owen, or Harold if you got it working.

I have the same 8Kw generac and although my AGS appears to already have mode 13 I would like to get some clarification on the wiring of the AGS to the generator. In the wiring junction box I see 3 conductor wires for the power, and two plugs. One with three wires and one with two wires. What wires from the AGS need to be connected to these and to which ones ?? Thank you very much.
Chris
 
16 Posts
Oct 16, 2009 07:37 am
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Chris,
Although I am not completely done yet I do know that the connector with the 2 yellow wires are N1 and N2 that monitor 220 (N1 on one 110v and N2 on the other 110v line).

I believe that Option 13 is already available on mine also even though I spent the $40 to rent one from Xantrex. Turns out it is only for Windows and I have a Mac.

At this point I plan to not use the relay control box that came with the generator package. I may opt to add a simple relay to by-pass the switch when the generator gets the control to start/stop. There has not been enough technical info on anyone who actually has the generator up and running.
 
6 Posts
Oct 16, 2009 09:17 am
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Hi Harold,

 Lack of technical info is what I am finding as well. I contacted Generac repeatedly but all they care about is telling me how using it off-grid nullifies their warranty, can't get a pin out diagram or anything from them. Xantrex provided just enough info to know it is possible but not enough to make the connection. Seems to be just that bit of 'here is exactly how I did it' info that we are missing.

It appears that I need to use the AGS to trigger a relay that interupts a 220V signal that I need to feed to N1 and N2 via a transformer of some description. But that doesn't give me enough into to figure out which one of the other 3 pins in the 2nd plug might be a bat+ run signal or what any of them are. Looks like with the info I have I could get it to start and stop but have zero feedback to the AGS?

Thanks
Chris

Thanks
Chris
 
49 Posts
Oct 17, 2009 09:30 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

  I have the xantrex inverters and went with kohler generator because they are warranted for off-grid and I found out early Generac was not. Seems like the connection to the inverters is the part no-one explaines or understands. I opted out for the generator control box and let the inverter turn the generator on and off when needed or for the monthly run of 15 minutes. Working for a year now great. My electrition called xantrex to hook up to the diodes inside. I could take a pic if you wanted, I"ll be there next weekend.I am also in the boonies with no phone out there or electric.  Good luck, Jim A.
 
16 Posts
Oct 18, 2009 07:04 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Chris,
The other 3 wires are +12v, common and return. One other thing, I added a 1.5 amp motorcycle trickle charger to the system. Used the ground and one 110v leg from the breaker. It only changes when the generator runs but it seems to keep the battery charged just fine.

On the AGS side of the house. I plan to connect the N1 and N2 wires up to my Xantrex inverter so the generator knows it is getting the correct voltage. Will be in uncharted territory after that. May try to add a relay to the start wire on the AGS to the Manual start and another relay for the shut down.

I will have to order the relays first so It may take a little time before I move forward. Until then it's working in Manual mode.
 
6 Posts
Oct 19, 2009 11:09 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Thanks Harold,

 You don't happen to recall which of the three colours in that 2nd plug was the +12v? I am hoping that one is the Bat+ I am looking for? (For the AGS)

I picked up a small solar panel instead of going the trickle charger route... should work ok.

P.S. I think I am going to try using the 220 out of the XW6048 I have instead of a transformer and then relay to interupt one line... we shall see... fingers crossed... rubber boots on. ; )

Thanks again,
Chris
 
49 Posts
Oct 22, 2009 11:57 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

  What about a carb heater for the winter. I ran a line from the house back by the generator to have an external plug which my trickle charger and temp sensative carb heater are plugged into.  Never had a problem. now if only the snow would melt off my solar panels?
 
28 Posts
Oct 23, 2009 11:56 am
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Hello everyone,

here are my two cents (or a bit more).

As mentioned, Generac will not honor warranties for their current product line for off-grid applications. They are supposed to be coming out with a line (6-7KW I believe) that will be warranted for off-grid. The products will be available in 1Q next year (I think).

If you are off-grid and have a generac generator and want to start and stop it from your inverter, you have a few options.

1) Remove the control assembly and modify it. This involves unsoldering or removing the leads from the AUTO-OFF-MANUAL switch and installing a modification. I can supply diagrams to do this, but it is a modification that will prohibit you from replacing the control card under warranty.

2) Use an external 240VAC, 60Hz source to "fool" the generator into thinking it is receiving utility power. To start the generator, you simply interrupt the "utility" voltage and the generator will start and run until the utility voltage returns.

You cannot use the 240 (0r 120) VAC output from the inverter to do this.  Consider, for a moment, the operational syntax of the inverter.  In the invert mode, the inverter produces 120 or 240 VAC to supply loads in the dwelling. When the inverter senses an external AC input (from a generator, for example) it switches from the invert mode to the charge mode. As soon as this switch is made, the inverter stops producing an AC output.

So, if you connect the inverter's AC output to lines N1 and N2 of the generator, the generator will see a utility voltage and remain dormant. If you interrupt line N1 or N2, the generator will start.  Now, at least, you've got the generator started and running and the batteries are charging.

OK, the batteries are now charged and the inverter signals the generator control to close the open line N1 or N2. The relay drops out but, there is no AC available from the inverter; it's still in charge mode. The generator is dumb; it simply keeps running because is detects no AC utility voltage on lines N1 and N2.

The only way to do this is to use a separate, self-contained source of 240VAC, 60 Hz. I have developed such a device and have it installed and operating in two off-grid applications.

Now, this ain't no sales pitch; I'm just trying to help. If anyone is interested in this gadget of mine, send an email to johnwhass @ aol.com and I can send you some info. If you're a good electronic technician, you can probably build it yourself.

I also have wiring diagrams for most generac products.

If you want to use a different generator, I suggest you visit the web site of US Carbueration. They take standard Yamaha generators (up to 6600 Watts, I believe) and modify them to use propane, natural gas or gasoline. The generators can be started remotely. For propane use, they can be ordered with an automatic primer which ensures reliable starts, even in winter . I'm in the White Mountains of New Hampshire and they work well here.

I've put a lot of effort getting various types of generators to work with various off-grid systems. Drop me an email if you need help.

Good Luck!

John
 
16 Posts
Oct 20, 2013 04:17 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Actually you can tap into the 240v in your main house panel connect to the N1, N2 at the generator. I added a on/off switch to one of the 110v legs. The generator senses the open/close of the switch and will start/stop the generator. This does not get me to the stage I really want to be at and that is to interface the gen to my AGS. Still need to come up a 2 input latching low voltage 12/24vdc relay to open/close the N1/N2 leg.
 
16 Posts
Oct 20, 2013 04:23 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

alt-E really should have been ontop of this issue by now. There are many, many  off-grid customers out there who have went to Lowes and purchased one of these Guardian 8kw generators. There tech support relationship with Xantrax should work to solve the problem. Xantrax wont give us nobodies the answers we need  Give us the option if we want to void our generator warranty or not.  We have gave big money to Alt-E and they should be getting us answers.
 
16 Posts
Oct 22, 2013 07:30 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Yesterday I ordered a programable light switch. I can program a 7 day schedule to turn on my Guardian (by replacing the switch I put on the N1, N2 from the generators 240 volt sensor). I plan to have it fire up the generator each evening for 2 hrs (two hours charges my battery bank in the winter). NOT the best solution but it works in a pinch.
 
16 Posts
Dec 4, 2013 09:46 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Although the programmable timer switch is working very well for me I have some new info. I have called Xantrex tech support about the AGS/Centurion comparability issue several times with no resolution, I had never called sense Schneider Electric purchased them.

The other day I called Schneider's tech support and they knew exactly what I was talking about and had a solution. Adolfo (the tech) said to use the AGS type 14 setup on a  Orion 4 pole Relay Contactor 2 NO 2 NC Auxiliaries 48 VDC and even provided a link to a EBay site http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/151029478532?lpid=82 so I ordered one. It is expected delivery tomorrow. It uses the AGS to energize/deenergize the relay that is connected to the N1/N2 240v on the generator. We will see.
 
16 Posts
Feb 24, 2014 09:15 pm
Re: XW Auto Generator Start and Centurion 8kw Generator

Update: it works great. I even upgraded from my 8k to a 20k Guardian whole house genset. They all utilize the N1/N2 240v to detect loss of shore power. You will only have to connect the relay to one leg (N1 or N2). The relay mentioned earlier will require a B+ voltage (48v in my case from my batteries) to energies the relay. The AGS does the actual switching to enable or disable N1.
 

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