Need smart electrician to help!

20 Posts
Nov 2, 2008 01:15 am
Need smart electrician to help!

Hello,

I have a 230v 10amp well pump.  It's a franklin electric 3/4hp pump.  It has a control box in my basement.

There's FOUR (4) wires coming out of the pump.  2 "hots", 1 neutral and 1 ground. 

The pump currently works through my regular residential house wiring.

So...... I would like to make it work with my solar setup.

I have a 3000w 115v inverter, connected to 800ah of 12v batteries, connected to a 30 amps charge controller, connected to 350 watts of solar panels.

How in the heck do I get it to work with the pump?  The pump obviously won't work on the 115v, so I need a 2 leg, 230v inverter OR a 115v to 230v transformer in front of the inverter.... BUT ... the only transformers I have been able to find are SINGLE LEG 230v transformers....

Newbie here...not an electrician.... need some easy instructions (just tell me what to buy and how to connect it) Smiley

Thanks,
Patrick


 
Nov 2, 2008 04:27 am
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

Hi Patrick.
I don't consider myself a smart electrician. A smart electrician might advise you to consult with a state licensed electrical contractor instead of giving away free and possibly incorrect information over an internet forum but, if you cannot find such a contractor who has first hand experience with these types of RE inverters nothing has been gained so, I'd like to take a crack at it. I'll also give you links to the information I have found. As for telling you how to wire it all up, I will have to refrain from that because I cannot actually see for myself what you have. If I am right though, it should be fairly straight forward wiring.

You say there is a "neutral" wire coming from the pump motor? Is this what you see in the controll box?
http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/franklin-electric-submersible-pump-control-boxes.htm
The explanation provided at the above site is somewhat confusing. It makes a reference to using a neutral wire with the incoming power but it tells us to land it with the EGC or grounding wire. This is pointless. The only time a neutral is needed is to obtain one or more single 120 volt line(s) from a 120/240 supply. The neutral provides a safe potential and can "carry back" the unbalanced load of multiwire branched circuits. When 240 volt alone is needed a single grounding wire is sufficient because the load is balanced against the two "hot legs" for the potential.
Are you sure its not a yellow "L2" wire? Anyway, it sounds as though it may be a simple capacitor start single phase 230 vac motor, only I would guess that the capacitor(s) is in the control box you mentioned. As opposed to being in or on the motor itself. What you are wanting to know is how to supply 3 wire, 230 vac to the controll box from a single inverter. Correct?
There is a single inverter capable of suppling 4 wire, 120/240 vac. Its the Magnum Energy MS-AE series inverter/charger.

 !!CAUTION!! !!CAUTION!! !!CAUTION!! !!CAUTION!!
The wire coming from the pump motor that you are calling a "neutral" wire, may not be a neutral wire at all. Be sure you fully understand whats going on with this before appling power to the control box. Does the control box have a terminal for a neutral wire with the in coming power supply? Is there a neutral wire with the existing supply wires? If so, where is it landed?
 Here is some more information about the subject from someone who has been in the business of RE water pumping a long time. http://www.wholesalesolar.com/Information-SolarFolder/Invt-sizingforwellpump.html
Heres is the Magnum MS-AE inverter/charger (24 vdc model)
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/magnum_ms_4024AE.html

Just out of curiosity, would changing the pump be out of the question?

« Last Edit: Nov 2, 2008 05:10 am by Thomas Allen Schmidt »
 
351 Posts
Nov 2, 2008 11:08 am
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

What are you trying to achieve ?
The generation that you have is roughly equivelent to one hours running time for that pump. Less during bad weather. Depending how much it runs, it will seriously impact how much power you have for other uses.
 
20 Posts
Nov 2, 2008 04:12 pm
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

Hmm well you're probably right, I just assumed what the wires were.  Here's the diagram of what's in my control box:

http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/franklin-electric-submersible-pump-control-boxes.htm

Changing the pump is not totally out of the question, but the well pump guy that installed my current pump told me a 115v pump would not be able to provide enough power to pull water up.  My pump is 120 feet down.  He also told me that even if it was capable of doing it, it's not recommended because there would be a huge loss of efficiency and reduced pump life.  ... Is that true?

 
20 Posts
Nov 2, 2008 04:17 pm
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

Well, the solar setup I'm talking about will be used ONLY for the pump.  Pump runs about 10 times a day, 2-3 minutes each time.

I have a separate 1kw system for lights, my fridge and various entertainment and ghost loads (tv, laptop, alarm clock etc).  It's only been running for a month, but so far so good.  Only thing I haven't done yet is the pump...

So 30 minutes a day MAX... It's usually more like 15 minutes a day.  And like I said, the MAX amps quoted are for starting only.  I'm sure the running amps are much lower..maybe 5-6 amps.

So 6 amps @ 230v = 1.4kwh.  If it runs 30 minutes per day, that's 700wh that I need.  Should have plenty....?  If I need more, I'll just buy more panels.

I live in a small town, and the only 5 electricians here all told me they only do "standard house wiring".  They all told me to go away.
 
9 Posts
Nov 2, 2008 08:30 pm
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

Hi Patrick,

Thomas is very likely correct that the pump has a capacitor start motor.  That would be the best explanation for more than two wires. 

I have a 3/4 Hp pump and a much shallower well.  I'm running mine at 230 volts.  The line losses start to add up at 115 volts.  I measure 6 Amps running with a 20 Amp surge at startup.  I have it battery backed up with a pair of Xantrex DR1524 inverters.  I use the two inverters stacked to get the 230 volts.  It was a bit of a toss-up as a 1500 va transformer to go from 115 to 230 would cost almost as much as the second inverter.   

The Magnum inverter looks like it will probably do what you want, but at a steep cost.

If you're very serious about powering your pump only from solar, I'd suggest using a DC pump.  In doing so, you remove one layer of inefficiency in the inverter. 

AltE sells a Shurflo, and there are several other brands out there.  Not super cheap, but still less costly than the Magnum. 

Good luck,

Tom T.

 
163 Posts
Nov 3, 2008 10:18 am
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

Patrick,

I don't consider myself a smart electrician but I run my well pump (and a pool pump also) from a 3000 watt 120V inverter using an Outback PSX-240 transformer. The PSX-240 has an enclosure and a fan, but you can get the X-240 by itself for a lower price.
http://search.altenergystore.com/search/?w=x-240&p=Q&ts=v2&x=27&y=11

My pump (different manufacturer) is similar to yours and the reason for the neural wire is because it can be wired to run on either 120V or 240V. Yours could very well be the same, and if it is there should be a label on it somewhere that indicates that is capable of 120V/240V operation.

I have tested mine in both 120V and 240V mode and it works equally well in both, so you might be able to save yourself the cost of a transformer until you need to operate something that does not have a 120V option.

John
 
14 Posts
Nov 8, 2008 03:09 am
Re: Need smart electrician to help!

"I have a 230v 10amp well pump.  It's a franklin electric 3/4hp pump.  It has a control box in my basement.

There's FOUR (4) wires coming out of the pump.  2 "hots", 1 neutral and 1 ground. "


Your pump has 2 "hots", a ground and the last wire runs from the start capacitor in your control box to the pump start circuit....it is NOT a neutral....your pump is a 220-240v ONLY pump, know commonly as a "3 wire" pump ( they don't count the green, ground wire ). A "2 wire" pump ( actually 3 with the ground ) has the start capacitor on the pump itself rather than in the control box on the surface somewhere, and could be either a 120v or a 240v pump.

The advantage of a 3 wire pump is that if the start capacitor goes out, you can replace it by simply changing the capacitor in the control box ( most people just buy a new control box ) instead of having to pull the pump out of the well to change it ( or the capacitor on the pump ).

My understanding of the PSX-240 Outback transformer is it will do exactly what you want far cheaper than going to a DC pump or stacking another inverter since you already have the setup you do dedicated JUST to the well pump.  You would have to ask if the Outback will work with any brand inverter, but I suspect it will.

 
 

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