MX-60 question

14 Posts
Apr 22, 2009 09:08 pm
MX-60 question

I have 6 Solarworld 175w panels currently connected in parallel to an MX-60. Each panel runs into an combiner box at the array, one panel per 10amp breaker, then on to the MX-60.....

Panels put out 4.7amp @35v. I have the MX-60 set for 24v output to my battery bank.

I want to add 2 more panels to the array, but the combiner box will only hold 6 breakers....and want to avoid going to a 12 circuit box for the expense and pain of install.

My question is can I connect the 8 panels in pairs of two in series, and run them thru 4 breakers on the combiner box, still putting out 4.7amp, but now at 70ish volts.....will the MX-60 have any problem stepping down that 70v to 24 on the output side ?

Thanks
 
220 Posts
Apr 22, 2009 09:48 pm
Re: MX-60 question

hi andy,

 that is the perfect plan!
keep the same breakers and your "home run" (the wire run from combiner to breaker before controller) exactly the same as you have and you will be good to go.

 this new setup will be better in every way to what you are running now.

cheers, dave



edit: "keep the same breakers" this is for the pv combiner and pv disconnect.
 you may have to recheck what you are using for the output side of the controller. if you went with the #2 and the outback recommended 80 amp breaker you are set. with anything smaller, even a 60 or 63 amp breaker we may get some nuisance tripping on the rare occasion that we are able to drive the output to it's preset current limit set point:) (default is 60amps*)

*user adjustable to 70amps 
« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2009 06:56 am by david ames »
 
14 Posts
Apr 23, 2009 08:32 am
Re: MX-60 question

Thanks for the reply, Dave.


Yes, I meant the same breakers in the combiner box.....just using 4 of them now rather than the 6 currently in use.  I assumed this would be OK since I wasn't increasing amperage, but only voltage, and they are Midnite 150vdc rated. Feed wire from the array down isn't an issue....I went oversized on the wire from the start, thinking I might expand as money permitted.

I have a 60 amp fused disconnect between the array and the MX-60, but not on the output side of the MX-60, my feed runs directly to the battery bank, then I have a 2-175amp breakers between the battery bank and the inverters ( pair of Outback GTFX2524's )

You say I can set the MX-60 to 70amp output if needed ?


And another question:

The MX-60 says it has a limit of 1600watts @24v output.

With 1050 watts of panel installed ( 6 x 175 ), the MOST I've ever seen it put out is 950watts....and typically more like 930 ( I have a homebuilt single axis tracker )......so I was thinking if I added 4 panels instead of two, that would be 1750 watts in theory ( 10 x 175ea ), but I figure it wouldn't put out more than 1600 ACTUAL watts, keeping me within the limits of the MX-60 rating.  Possibly, sometimes it would briefly run over that ( right sun conditions, reflection off winter snow, etc ), but most of the time, it would be most likely right at or slightly under the 1600w.  Trying to get the max panel on an array without changing the CC.

Bad idea or not ?

 
578 Posts
Apr 23, 2009 08:45 am
Re: MX-60 question

yes, bad idea.

8 is about all you are good for.  fuses okay is input ocpd, and you should have one on the output as well sized for 80. 

if you choose to make improvements to your system, this is where i would go

http://store.altestore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Electrical-Enclosures/DisconnectLoad-Enclosures/Dc/Outback-FlexWare-FW500-DC-breaker-enclosure/p5576/

with these for the inverters

http://store.altestore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Overcurrent-Devices-Fuses-Breakers/Circuit-Breakers/Outback-Obdc-175-175A-DC-Breaker/p875/

and these for before and after the controller

http://store.altestore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Overcurrent-Devices-Fuses-Breakers/Circuit-Breakers/Outback-Obdc-60-60A-DC-Breaker/p882/

http://store.altestore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Overcurrent-Devices-Fuses-Breakers/Circuit-Breakers/Outback-Obdc-80-DC-Breaker-80A-125Vdc-075W/p3076/

cheers,

james
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220 Posts
Apr 23, 2009 06:11 pm
Re: MX-60 question

"With 1050 watts of panel installed ( 6 x 175 ), the MOST I've ever seen it put out is 950watts....and typically more like 930"

 andy, those outputs are fantastic. anyone would be happy with those numbers. i would love to hear more about that homemade tracker you knocked up. is it a clockwork drive or an active diode sensor drive? or maybe it's passive fluid driven?

 that 70 amp current adjustment is an unadvertised "gift" from the folks at outback to make use of the maximun recommended array in cool temps with low battery state of charge. and should not be transfered over to the input side of the controller. there are some wizards with these controllers who are doing it though- but we mere mortals should stay with the factory specs. you can talk with the design engineers over on the outback tech forum..some of these guys are even changing the mppt parking % and sweep rates throughout the seasons for max output. seems to be more of a game than a set it and forget it approach that the average joe might be able to handle. i have yet to be able to get through the menu without referring to the manual. and lately i need a pair of glasses to read the pages...next i will be needing glasses to find the manual!

 and good advice from james about getting a breaker/disconnect/ocpd between the controller and battery bank.

 are you using the data logger? i would be interested to hear about your new production totals after adding this %33 more modules while doubling the vmp of your array...should bring that 930-950 watt high up to 1235-1260 watts or better. not to shabby!

good luck, dave
 
14 Posts
Apr 23, 2009 07:16 pm
Re: MX-60 question

Dave,

Am I understanding you are saying by connecting 3 pairs of panels in series, doubling the voltage, that my output on 6 panels would rise from 930-950w range to the 1200w range ??

I guess I don't understand HOW that would happen ?  Does the MX-60 do THAT much better with higher voltage ??  If so, all I can say is WOW !!  and THANKS Outback.

You've got me REALLY curious now.....I'm gonna run out tomorrow and slap two more panels on one array, and wire all 8 in pairs.....then compare it to the other array and see how it does.  ( I have two arrays of 6 panels each )

The tracker mounts are some homemade deals I welded up.

The are simple....a "H" frame of 1.5" square tubing, with the center part being a shaft of 2" steel, 4' long, mounted in two pillow block type bearings.  The bearings are bolted to the flat face of a pc of 8" x 2" steel channel.  The channel I welded to a 10' of 6" sch40 steel pipe, cut at a 37 degree angle. ( 1/2 way between summer/winter angles for here ) The pipe is anchored in a 4x4x4'block of poured concrete in the ground, with the sloped channel due south.

Then I welded 8' lengths of electrical Unistrut perpendicular to the "H" of square tubing that pivots east-west.  The panels mount to the Unistrut using standard cam nuts for it, and some aluminum "L" clips I had made at a local metal shop.  Ran self tapping screws thru the clips into the panel frames.

The tracking is done by a 36v DC linear actuator, with a controller built by a third party.....had a lot of trouble getting a controller to work, but believe I have that issue worked out now.  It active tracks the sun thru the day, then the panels park east at night for the next morning.
I had two controllers initially, one for each array....but now I've rigged a set of relays and one controller runs both actuators in tandem.....
 
220 Posts
Apr 23, 2009 09:52 pm
Re: MX-60 question

andy,

 "Am I understanding you are saying by connecting 3 pairs of panels in series, doubling the voltage, that my output on 6 panels would rise from 930-950w range to the 1200w range ??"

 yikes!, if only that were possible. sorry, that was for the (8x175) totals.

 sounds like some project building that tracker-hope you called for a pour with all that concrete..i once over estimated my ability to hand mix and it nearly did me in.

 cheers on welding those monsters up, learning that skill (welding) has moved up on my list of "things to do" and am looking for an easy wire feed mig to have around the shack.
i'm currently working on an axial flux build (based on hugh piggots three phase design) and enjoy trying to do a project %100 on my own.

 that sure is an impressive amount of pv you are running. are both arrays running with mx60's? i'm sure you have your reasons for not going with a grid tie. there are some locations that give you a feed in credit based on "avoided costs" and them sell it back to you at standard rate. you must be close to being self sufficient with your power needs with that set up, and after ponying up for pv one sure learns to respect the amount of power we use.

 andy, i'm curious if you have had any after thoughts on making those trackers with a fixed 37* angle? (vs manually adjustable).

 i'm off to play with a coil winder i'm trying to put together.

kind regards, dave
 
14 Posts
Apr 25, 2009 01:13 am
Re: MX-60 question

andy,


 sounds like some project building that tracker-hope you called for a pour with all that concrete..i once over estimated my ability to hand mix and it nearly did me in.


Oh yeah, it was definitely a concrete truck day....actually it was also a concrete PUMP truck day.....since each of those took a bit over 2yds each and are located up on a hill above the house.....but I combined it with a pumped pour for a new root cellar roof ( 8x12 x 6" thick ) and some retainer wall block fill, so he pumped 10yds that day.


cheers on welding those monsters up, learning that skill (welding) has moved up on my list of "things to do" and am looking for an easy wire feed mig to have around the shack.
i'm currently working on an axial flux build (based on hugh piggots three phase design) and enjoy trying to do a project %100 on my own.

Yeah, I'm a certified "farm welder".....as long as it doesn't leave the farm, it might hold....ahahahaaaa....

Nah, I do fair at it, though if it's something critical that has to hold pressure, I go get a buddy that really knows how to weld.  I have a Miller "Bobcat" stick welder.....engine driven 16hp 200amp model that also doubles as a backup generator ( 8kw ), then I also bought a Miller MIG wire welder a few years ago....that one makes even a 'farm welder' look like they know what they are doing !



 that sure is an impressive amount of pv you are running. are both arrays running with mx60's? i'm sure you have your reasons for not going with a grid tie. there are some locations that give you a feed in credit based on "avoided costs" and them sell it back to you at standard rate. you must be close to being self sufficient with your power needs with that set up, and after ponying up for pv one sure learns to respect the amount of power we use.

MX-60 on one array....FX-60 ( what replaced the MX ) on the other.....I expanded once already and the MX was no longer available.

Don't know how I left you with the impression I'm off grid, because this is a grid tie system with battery backup....I have 8 --L-16's in backup....and plan to add 8 more, for a total of 1600 amp/hr....the first panels I installed were off grid for a bit while I experimented some....but then I got serious about the whole thing seeing what they would do.....

We DO have a nifty credit here.....TVA pays 15 cents/KwHr for all wind/solar up to 50kw sized system, then after it goes thru the buyback meter, we get to use that hour we produced for free IF I'm consuming electricity at the time ( which with a fridge and 3 freezers, something is always running here ), so that avoids buying that hour at 9.3cents to boot....pretty sweet deal I thought.  My goal is to get my system up to where it replaces about 1/2 what we actually use ( about 900kw/hr/month year round average )but replace ALL our bill due to the way the money works out. Then I'll quit and move on to another project.



 andy, i'm curious if you have had any after thoughts on making those trackers with a fixed 37* angle? (vs manually adjustable).


My understanding with single axis trackers is you get about 30% more out of them ( and that seems to be holding true from what I see, playing with mine leaving one fixed in the "noon" position and letting the other one track ), but only gain 8% more on the other axis.  Since this was a "home built" deal, I decided to weld the up-down axis good and solid ( not knowing how wind would affect things.....getting a lot of "sail" area up there now )and just to make life simple.  Probably if I could come up with a good, solid, manual design to crank it up-down, I might...but I'm happy with this.  I have less than a 1000 bucks in each tracker, and that blows away the prices I see for active trackers this size...and I suspect my design is  a LOT more stout....I tend to way overbuild stuff.

BTW, we're coming up on our first "MEGA watt/hour".....1,000 KwHrs.....should happen tomorrow evening or the next morning based on these new panels I got up today......we went "online" end of December 08 for buyback purposes.....it's been doing 12-13kw/hrs a day lately, and now we're upping that by 6 panels ( 50% ), so we should be cranking out 18 or so per sunny day....the fans never shut off in the inverters on a days like this...ahahahaaaa.....but that's ok....that waste heat isn't wasted....it's going into my greenhouse (solar gear room is on one end of it )......the tomatoes love it.

I'm not a big fan of waste.........especially when I paid so much to get it.....ahahahaaaaa

andy

 
220 Posts
Apr 25, 2009 11:27 am
Re: MX-60 question

 hi andy,

 thanks for giving us the inside tour of your system build. your descriptions are very clear and give a nice visual of what you have done. you had mentioned earlier the "(pair of Outback GTFX2524's)" but i missed it, that is a sweet deal getting paid for the production AND then getting the matching kwh's for use..i can see the potential for people to play games with that deal though, i'm sure the TVA is watching. also i was not aware of the meager payback of the dual axis setup (when combined with active single) till now and have looked into it a bit and in fact you are correct, so thanks for the insight there.

 congrats on the first MEGAWATT, that is like when we used to roll the odometer over in the car and mark the occasion with a line in the road!

 also i've read about folks adding external fans to blow over those mx's when running full tilt, the fx model apparently has a more robust internal fan as part of the new controller design.

 at least now you know if things get slow "down on the farm" you could get into the tracker building business..as the market price for trackers like that is HUGE $ compared to the grand a pop you whipped them up for!

kind regards, dave kb1mzf
 

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