Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Jun 25, 2009 10:26 pm
Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Hello,

I have a bank of 6 4v Surrette deep-cycle batteries that have been online for about 1.5 years.  I recently added water and brought the levels up to what I though was about 1/2 to 1 inch below the bottom of the filler neck.

Since then, almost 1 week ago, my bank has exhibited a drastic decrease in  performance.  I thought it might clear up as the new water fully mixed in the cells, but I see no signs of improvement.

I checked all the cell levels again, and noticed that I had overfilled 2 cells to almost the bottom of the filler neck.  Could this explain the performance hit (probably 50% drop in capacity)?  Should I try to siphon some water out, maybe with a silicon bulb syrine?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!

Sam Klawitter
 
Jun 26, 2009 05:10 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

I am going to ask you some questions. They may come across as being offensive. Especially so, being written on a public forum, so please, don't take offense, its not intended. It would be different if this were person to person or better yet, friend to friend, right?

Is this the first time you've added distilled water in a year and a half?
Are they getting a good charge?
These two question kinda go hand in hand, if you know what I mean. Is the charge/discharge cycle, in amp hours, they receive over 24 hours approximately 1/5 of the total rated amp hours of capacity? I guess a better way to ask that would be, are they being shallow cycled or deep cycled?

You did use distilled water?
Had the battery bank been equalized before the addition of new distilled water?
Before distilled water was added, were the plates exposed to air?

Once the distilled water is added into the battery it mixes with the acid and becomes electrolyte.
To much electrolyte will start to rise as charge develops and could come out of the batteries, spilling out all over the place or worse, if the cap gets full of electrolyte, the gas may not be able to escape fast enough and it could blow the caps off. It wouldn't be a bad idea to remove some as you suggested. Save the electrolyte though and add it back next time.

"Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light."
~Helen Keller~
 
28 Posts
Jun 26, 2009 08:17 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

I would ask two questions. 1) what is the temperature of the batteries; the area where they're located and 2) what is the specific gravity of the cells?  Do you have a hydrometer and have you measured the specific gravity?  If so, what were the readings?

Specific gravity tells you much more than voltage or charge rates.
 
Jun 26, 2009 10:59 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Absolutely no offense taken!  Thanks for taking the time to ask!

This is the third or fourth time I have added water, and I check them about every 2-3 months.  I used distilled water, storebought.  I can't say for sure if the charge/discharge cycle is 1/5 the total capacity of the bank, but I don't think they have ever been truly deep-cycled.  Our 1100W PV array brings them up to full charge even on overcast days, and until the last week, I had never seen the voltage drop below 12.4 even after several overcast days.  We usually see about 35-60AH reported on the charge controller daily, and it throttles incoming power, i.e. even if the array is producing 800w+, we only see a fraction of that being used to charge the batteries.  Interestingly, I have not observed much change in incoming daily amp hours reported, just the decrease in performance after the sun goes down.

We DON'T have an LVD, which I know is a problem, but we only run a couple of toilet fans that are less than 1w apiece and 5-6 12v CF lights in the 5-7w range.  It's been awhile since I read the documentation, but I thought the Outback MPPT charge controller handled float and equalization automatically, but I did NOT specifically check for equalization before adding the water.

The plates have NEVER been exposed to air, but I noticed that there were some droplets of water on the tops of the batteries around the 2 cells that are overfilled, so I probably have some boil over. 

I have only checked the temperature by feel, and all I can say is that the ambient temperature of the box now is that it doesn't feels slightly cooler than the outside temperature.  They are in a triple insulated outbuilding with a slightly recessed inground concrete floor that stays cool. 

I don't have a good hydrometer, but I'm putting one on order today! I'll also put in a thermometer so I can asses the temperature more scientifically.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, and thanks for your feedback!!!!
 
Jun 26, 2009 11:09 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Urg, bad sentence...

"I have only checked the temperature by feel, and all I can say is that the ambient temperature of the box now is that it doesn't feels slightly cooler than the outside temperature."

I meant...

I have only checked the temperature by feel, and all I can say is that the ambient temperature of the box feels slightly cooler than the outside temperature (about 85F).

Sorry.
 
3 Posts
Jun 26, 2009 07:25 pm
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

From your messages, you sound quite knowledgeable about your system, so my comments may be also come across as offensive.

My first thoughts are about the mechanical connections of the batteries.  From your description, it sounds like you are running two strings of batteries creating a 12v system. Could it be possible that one of the six Surrette have a loose connection?

I’m trying to picture what will happen if the Outback controller saw unequal strings of batteries (OR if it only saw two well-charged 4v batteries).  It might “Think” you have one very weak 12v battery, and work very hard to bring voltage back up.  The boil-over could be a sign of possible over-charge, or it could be automatic equalization doin’ its thing.

If all the connections look good, I would suggest breaking the batteries apart and only use 3 batteries to create the 12v. Let that run a few days, then try the second set of batteries. You might find one bad apple in the mix.

Again, take my suggestion with a grain of salt…. I’m still running a small system and using Deep-Cycle Marine batteries. (my own way to learn-the-hard-way about battery care)

Best of luck
 
Jun 26, 2009 09:21 pm
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Have you ever notice how, sometimes, you can hear something said or read something written a certain way and it seems to turn a light on inside your mind? I think its called an epiphany.
Batteries were a big mystery to me at one time until I read in an old high school science text book that, "Batteries do not store electricity, they convert electric energy into a chemical energy and store that until such time as the electric energy is needed and, then it is convert back from chemical energy, with a cost."
Some folks think in terms of text, some in terms of math, I think in terms of images. When I read this about batteries, I could visualize, with my minds eye, what was going on inside the battery at the molecular level.
In the lead-acid battery, the active material within the positive electrode consists of lead dioxide, while the negative active material is a metallic lead. The positive active material is formed electrochemically from a cured plate, and influences the performance of the lead-acid battery. The electrolyte consists of a sulfuric acid solution, and as the battery discharges, the electrodes are converted into lead sulfate, which reverses when the battery is charged.
The basic principle behind "the battery" is two dissimilar metals and a catalyst. That was discovered by Luigi Galvani sometime in the 1700's while cutting a frog leg, Galvani's steel scalpel touched a brass hook that was holding the leg in place. The leg twitched. Further experiments confirmed this effect, and Galvani was convinced that he was seeing the effects of what he called animal electricity, the life force within the muscles of the frog. At the University of Pavia, Galvani's colleague Alessandro Volta was able to reproduce the results, but was skeptical of Galvani's explanation.
The Voltaic pile. A century and a half after Galileo's death, something of scientific importance was to develop in Italy. Volta, a former high school physics teacher, found that it was the presence of two dissimilar metals, not the frog leg, that was critical. In 1800, after extensive experimentation, he developed the voltaic pile. The original voltaic pile consisted of a pile of zinc and silver discs and between alternate discs, a piece of cardboard that had been soaked in saltwater. A wire connecting the bottom zinc disc to the top silver disc could produce repeated sparks. No frogs were injured in the production of a voltaic pile.

I realize this does not help you to fix your immediate problem. If anything it makes it worse because your here, using power to read my trivia. Actually, I think Mr. Owens has a good point in that regard. Lets us know how it all turns out, won't you?
 
F = k (q1 X q2) / d2  (Charles Coulomb)
 
Jun 27, 2009 12:46 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Thanks to everyone for thier comments.  I am only slightly more interested in the result than the process, so believe me that nothing anyone could suggest could possibly be considered offensive!

Thomas, John, Scott you have given me direction and ideas, which I desperatly needed.  I don't fully understand batteries, or really electricity for that matter (I mean, what is electricity really...!??) but I plod on trying the best of what I've read or gleaned from the experience of others.  What is life if not experimental...? 

Scott, that's how my batteries are configured, and I think the two overfilled cells are in the same string, so it would be easy to disconnect it.  Also, my charge controller was not equalizing like I thought, so I did add water without an equalization.  Will be sure to equalize in the future.

So, my game plan currently is to disconnect the strings, make sure elecrolyte levels are equal in the "good" string and , assuming tomorrow is mostly sunny, equalize that string and check performance. Wait a bit, and if that succeeds, isolate the other string, syringe off extra electrolyte, equalize that string and verify performance.  Wait a bit more and if all is good, then I think I can connect the strings back together, do yet another equalize on the whole bank, and be off to the races!  This process should also reveal any bad connections or terminal corrosion.
     
Also, as soon as my newly ordered hydrometer arrives, I'll measure specific gravity in all cells and hopefully rule out a bad battery. 

Even if I have hosed a battery or two (really hope not), I'll come out of this with a better grasp on things, and certainly to pay more attention to the things I thought were 'simple' and routine, like adding water to batteries...

Thank you for your words, your time, and your interest!!  Will post my results.

 
Jun 28, 2009 11:04 am
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries


I don't fully understand batteries, or really electricity for that matter (I mean, what is electricity really...!??)


I grew up hearing a phrase, "You've opened up a can of worms." As a child I imagined that worms came in a can and on those occasions that I went to the grocery store with my mother I would look for them on the shelves of canned goods. Of course I never saw them. Eventually though, on a summers fishing trip with my dad and a bucket of worms, I caught on to its meaning. A tangled mess. You can't tell where one worm ends and another starts.

Electricity is a simple matter to some and not so simple a matter to others. A never ending circle of events. For most, I believe that, as long as the light comes on when they flip the switch, thats all that matters.
I would explain electricity as, an amount of electrons over a period of time, but it can go a lot deeper than that. What is an electron? What is time?
What is an electron? For that we have to look at the atoms of matter or a mass.
So what are atoms made of? In the middle of each atom is a "nucleus." The nucleus contains two kinds of tiny particles, called protons and neutrons. Orbiting around the nucleus are even smaller particles called electrons. The 115 kinds of atoms are different from each other because they have different numbers of protons, neutrons and electrons.
http://www.chemicalelements.com/
Protons, neutrons and electrons are very different from each other. They have their own properties, or characteristics. One of these properties is called an electrical charge. Protons have what we call a "positive" (+) charge. Electrons have a "negative" (-) charge. Neutrons have no charge, they are neutral. The charge of one proton is equal in strength to the charge of one electron. When the number of protons in an atom equals the number of electrons, the atom itself has no overall charge, it is neutral. 
Some materials hold their electrons very tightly. Electrons do not move through them very well. These things are called insulators. Plastic, cloth, glass and dry air are good insulators. Other materials have some loosely held electrons, which move through them very easily. These are called conductors. Most metals are good conductors.
This is where the question, what is time, might occur.
We cannot conceive of motion without time. Clocks measure time. We cannot conceive of time without motion. When there is an imbalance of electrons between to atoms, the electrons will move (motion/time) from one to the other in order to balance out. We see this in nature as static electricity and on a larger scale lightning.
 A coulomb of negative charge is that of 6,280,000,000,000,000,000 electrons.
One ampere flowing for one second of time passes a coulomb of electric charge. Charles Coulomb first described electric field strengths in the 1780's. He found that for point charges, the electrical force varies directly with the product of the charges. In other words, the greater the charges, the stronger the field. And the field varies inversely with the square of the distance between the charges. This means that the greater the distance, the weaker the force becomes. This can be written as the formula: F = k (q1 X q2) / d2
Where F is the force, q1 and q2 are the charges, and d is the distance between the charges. k is the proportionality constant, and depends on the material separating the charges.

One could expand on all of this and theorize that, energy is equal to mass but only at a certain speed, the speed of light squared: E=mc2.
It can be construed that energy and mass, mass and energy are one in the same.

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books---a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects." ~ Albert Einstein ~
 
Jun 30, 2009 10:35 pm
Re: Battery bank weak after adding water to batteries

Just an update...my batteries are back up to spec!!  For the sake of posterity, I am posting my results so maybe some other poor fool can avoid my mistakes:)

My new hydrometer (which nicely has 3 sections, red for bad, white for fair, and green for good) showed that most of my cells were barely in the green..really closer to white..except the two overfilled cells that were solidly in the white.   

Used a glass drink mixer and my hydrometer to level off the electrolyte to within a millimeter of factory spec (actually 1/4" below the bottom of the filler neck) and noticed that one of my cables was very loose on one of the uplinks between the strings.  I discovered that my sense of depth perception into the battery cell was extremely poor...what I thought was about 1/2" an inch was closer to 1/4" to 1/8" of an inch, so in fact many of my cells were overfilled.  I sucked out almost 1/2 gallon of electrolyte in total and saved it in glass canning jars. 

I looked up Surrette's recommended equalize settings for my batteries (2 hours minimum at 15.6V) and equalized the bank.  Fluid levels did not change significantly after the equalizations, and if float charged for about 4 hours. 

I didn't split the strings apart, like I had planned, as I was faced with new evidence.  Performance seems to be better than new.  Have yet to see a drop below 12.6, and it often stays at 12.7 or 12.8 until after midnight. 

Thanks to everyone for your help!! (Thomas, I truly enjoy reading your posts...I've read bits of them many times.  I often get 'how' confused with 'why,' and then get all jittery with the inabilty to comprehend..)

Thanks again to all!!
 

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