Ken Hall's posts

I would contact Kohler with the model numbers and serial numbers and ask them about converting that genset. If you don't have a manual, it would also be a chance to get one.
They would also be the best people to provide a new 24v generator to match the gas power unit, if you cannot convert what you have.

Based on the somewhat limited info you provided, my impression is that you could probably benefit by moving the entire system up to 48V. You may want to consider that option.

The other caution I will give you is that if you do not understand the automatic controls in-depth, you may want to get somebody that does. Have them look at the logic for both the genset and the controllers. Sometimes logic systems have a way of fighting each other. With more complex logic circuits, particularly from two or more vendors, the more likely a conflict is to occur.

Good luck with it.

2 smaller panels are often easier to place on the boat. If they are not side by side, shading of both panels is rare. If one is damaged or quits working, you still have 1/2 pwoer to limp by on, while you are waiting for a replacement.

Hi Richard:

The first thing I would recommend is that you get a copy of the stream engine manual, if you do not already have one. It is available here off the Alt-E store site, or directly from
http://www.microhydropower.com/e-literature/May-SEmanual.pdf
It has a real good section on determining head and flows, as well as other system design info.
Next is an article on installing a stream engine.
http://www.homepower.com/files/hp67-68.pdf
Both of these documents make good general references, in addition to being specific for the stream engine.

In your specific case, I think that the stream engine will be the best “out of the box” solution. Something else could be built up one piece at a time, but the efficiencies gained would be marginal. Your biggest problem is low flow.

Assuming that the flows and pressures you gave are correct, the 4 nozzle machine makes some sense. By plumbing it with individual nozzle shutoffs, you will have a neat way to avoid switching larger and smaller nozzles. You are actually lucky in that aspect. With different flows or head, you could have ended up having to switch nozzles to maximize the unit, even with the 4 nozzle model. In that case, I would have said go with 2 nozzles, because it will be cheaper and easier to change 2, rather than 4.

You did not say if you are planning to re-use the old pipe.  If that is part of the plan, you need to get out there and get the pipe functioning ASAP.  Not only will it confirm the pressure and flow (which I think is critical), but it will prove whether the pipe has any problems.  The age/condition varies, but the phrase “old pipe” scares me. Scaling of the pipe can give you repeated nozzle problems, even if the pipe does not leak. It could takes weeks or even months of periodic flushing, before you know if the water will clean up enough, not to cause problems.
If you can get it flowing water in a day or two, great. Otherwise I would write it off and re plan from scratch.  That could be just new pipe from this source, or it could allow you take another look at the other sources. 

Combining sources at different pressures is difficult. The easiest way and often the least expensive, is to run them as separate hydro sources and then combine them electrically.

The 5 gpm 120 psi source has both advantages and disadvantages. It is a very low flow source 5 gpm, but it is at least 280 feet high( based upon the 120 psi). The stream engine manual doesn’t even show 5 gpm flows. You can check with the mfg, but I think you will find that it will only produce about 75 watts at this flow. This is about 1.8 kilowatt hours a day.  When the flow picks up to 10 gpm, it will produce about 190 watts, 4.5kwh a day. When the flow picks up to 20 gpm, it will produce about 510 watts or 12.2kwh a day. 

That is going to raise heck with your electrical system, particularly your battery bank sizing/operation. I think I would take a look at your electrical needs, get a rough idea of the daily usage and the size bank you need, and then look at how much generation you can really use. There could be an argument made to size the thing based on the 10 gpm flow and just let the excess water go. There is no reason to generate a bunch of power, if most of it goes to your dump load. And it could reduce the total capital cost of the installation. But that is just one factor of the cost/benefit analysis.

Power transmission from the turbine/gen to the battery bank/inverter may become an issue depending on the distance between them, and the dc voltage, particularly at the 20 gpm flow.

Regardless of the end size of the bank, you need to figure out how to top the batteries off several times a week, during the 5 gpm flows.

I hope this helps,
Ken

Bruce:

I don't think its the switch. It sounds to me like you are cross wired, most probably in the light box. But check the wiring at both switches and the light.

Your switch that always works should be the one where the power source is. The power enters this switch box with 2 wires which I will call black (hot) and white (Neutral). The black should connect to the pole near the bottom of the switch. You need three wires from this point. The red and black (Both will be Hot)should be connected to the 2 upper poles. Connect the two white wires with a wire nut.

In the light box, both the the red and black wires should be connected to the red and black that run to the switch at the far end. Connect the white wire (From the first switch box) to the white wire off of the light. Take the white wire that is going to the switch at the far end and wrap some black tape around the insulation (Or use an indelible black marker) as a "Hot" id. This w/b wire is the hot return from the far end switch, connect it to the black wire of the lamp. (from this light box to the far end switch, there is no neutral. all three wires are considered hot.)

At the far end switch The red and black should be on the upper two poles of the switch. The white wire should also be marked with black tape or ink and this wire should connect to the bottom pole of the switch.

Hope that helps.

Ken

What type of head do you have to work with ?
(The difference in height between your water source and turbine location)

What is the distance between these two points ?

An estimate of the spring &  fall flows would also be helpful?

The answers to these questions would help in addressing the turbine type.

Ken

If you were building a new house and could control the orientation and slope of the roof surfaces, the solar shingles would reduce the visual impact of the system. However, in most retrofit applications, you will lose a lot of power because of improper slope or orientation. So, unless you have a true south facing roof that is sloped at an angle near your latitude, the shingles will not work well for you. (Example: the 136W shingle panels might only provide 100W, so you would need 38 of them instead of 28. And it could be much worse)

I believe that you would be much happier with conventional PV panels. I would also give some consideration to mounting them in adjustable racks, so you could maximize the output by adjusting the tilt angle (slope) several times a year.   

Individual panels would also be a lot easier to replace if you have one fail.

As far as ideas for cash, a lot of banks will loan money for solar systems as home improvement loans. Depending on what state you live in, you may have substantial incentives (sometimes up to 50 percent of the cost) available.

The $20K cost that you mentioned appears to be just the cost of the panels. You will most likely find that you need close to another $10k in other equipment/materials to make the system work, and more if you go with battery backup.

Al:

Dankoff pumps makes various pump lines, and a number of models with in each pump line. Based on what you have said, I would look at their Suncentric pumps. An Example is:
http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Water-Pumps/Surface-Pumps/Suncentric-Centrifugal-Pump/SUNCENTRIC-7426-DC-SURFACE-PUMP/p387/

I would attempt to do it with a direct connection to a PV array. That will be the least expensive.

However, because your system works on emitters at x gph your 8 hour pumping time may be fixed and it may mandate batteries. With batteries, you could also build in a reserve of 2-3 days pumping, if desired.

Another key point would be the minimum psi required by the emitters and the height of the highest emitter above the water.

Also, what months do you need to irrigate ?  If you have to irrigate in the October-Feb period, you may have to upsize the PV array.

With that data, they can start sizing a system out for you.
From the looks of it, you might get by with one pump directly from the river.

If you ran new piping for the solar pump and Tee it in some place just down stream of the gas driven pump from the tank (installing valves in both lines, just in front of the Tee), you could keep the gas driven system in place for back up on cloudy days.  Or, If you can only get 6 hours of pumping from the solar system, you might be able to switch over for the final two hours of pumping.

I would write an e-mail to the sales staff here at the Alt-E-Store, giving them the info you told us, the info that I pointed out, and ask for their recommendation and cost for a system.

Ken

You are losing a lot of power. IF it was me, I would definitely put them on racks facing south. I would make them adjustable racks so that I could change the tilt angle a couple of times a year.

Here is a good article on tilt optimization.

http://www.macslab.com/optsolar.html

Ken

I am sorry to hear about the pricing issues. It makes me wonder too.

I don't know type of response your going to get to your questions here on the technical board. You might try putting up on the discussion board where they ask "How are we doing ?

I suggest that you escalate your effort. Give them a call, and ask for a supervisor of some sort. Then ask them to confirm whatever they tell you in writing. Hope you have copies of the original web page. The page seems to have changed in the last couple of days. It now says transformer extra. I would be interested in hearing your feed back once you get to the end of it.

I do not know how much total effort you want to put into this. I do not like games with advertised prices. But even when you get to the bottom line price, the cheapest price is not always the best price.

Buying a wind machine of this size is a big investment and you will need help with the installation. Might be a good idea to check with someone more local to you and see what their prices are. The local guy is the one that you will try calling when you really need help in the future.

Often there local knowlege can give you a better installation in the long run, which is worth many bucks. Do you want a $8,000 installation that you are unhappy with, or a $10,000 one that you are extremely happy with.

Good luck,
Ken (aka Oso)

Peter:

I would recommend that you do not install the inverter at this time, unless you have a pressing need for 115V power.  The inverter has about a 0.5amp no load draw, so it will increase your power needs by a minimum of 12 amp hours a day. That alone will make a bad situation, worse.
When a load is put on the inverter, and it kicks into gear, the power draw will go up.  That inverter is only about 85% efficient. If the inverter is just for the computer and modem, you are probably better off the way you are. Inverting the power to 115 ac and then converting it back to dc in the computer is probably less efficient than your current 12 VDC connection. So, I would recommend figuring out your power deficit problem, first.

Mathematically, you are supposed to be producing close to 1,200 watt hours at this time of year. Taking your stated 2.7 amp load, that is 32.4watts. As a constant 24 hr a day load, that would be 777.6 watt hours. So, there should be 300 plus watt hours somewhere.
Some of that will be charging and discharging losses, but approximately 25 percent losses is high for the existing system (no inverter).

It is not clear to me, if this is a one time problem, or if is repeating. Once the batteries go down and you get the low voltage disconnect, you cannot expect the panels to charge the batteries fully.  As soon as you hit 12.6 volts and the load reconnects the voltage will drop down to 12.5 volts or less. 12.5 volts is a 90% SOC 12.42 volts is 80% SOC.

 This is why I suggested using a charger to fully charge the batteries. Knowing that the batteries are fully charged, going flat over night will re-confirm the problem.  If it takes several days for the problem to reappear, then you may just be running at a slight deficit.
(By the way, The LVD voltage of 11.4v under load would be about a 20% SOC or an 80%DOD (Depth of Discharge). A few cycles to that depth won’t kill your batteries, but regular repeated discharges to that depth results in limited battery life, and some would say premature battery failure.
 
Getting back to the problem, There are four potential answers. 1) The panels are not generating their rated output. 2) The watts are being lost before they get to the batteries. 3) The batteries are not accepting or are losing the watts. 4)Your loads are greater than you are listing.  You could also have some combination of these items.
 
I am going to take the last one first.  You have given use the computer/modem/monitor load as 2.7 amps.  But what about the load during irrigation??? Your logic circuit might be turn on/turn off signals, which might not eat much power.  On the other hand if it is a continuous irrigate command, that continuous signal for 6-8 hours might be a significant load on the system. Try triggering the irrigation system and see if the load jumps and whether it stays up during the irrigation.
The load of the Prostar 1500 is fairly insignificant, about 1 milliamp. Is there any other load, regardless of size, that you have not talked about ?

If possible, turn on the energy saving feature for your monitor, to put it to sleep, when you are not using it . This should reduce the load.

You have not said anything about how much power you are actually generating. I am assuming that you have the optional digital meter since you told us that the load indicates 2.7 amps.  It should also be displaying solar panel current, in amps. Does it show 15 amps during the late morning-early afternoon period of full sun ? Particularly with your low battery problem, the solar panel current reading should be pegged most of the day. If it isn’t, you are not getting “full generation” to the controller.

Another test, I would try shutting off the load during a period where you have something close to 15 amps showing on Solar Panel current. Does the current reading change ? While still in a no load condition, slip a 12v ampmeter (automotive type OK) onto the positive cable of the battery near the battery terminal. What reading do you get ? If you are not pushing most of the 15 amps into the battery, it may be the problem.  (This test would best be run while you know the battery needs charging, so in the first couple hours of the full sun period )
 
Do you have the battery sense feature connected ? How far away from the controller are the batteries located ? If you do not have the sense feature connected, measure the voltage on the battery connection terminals on the Prostar, and then on the actual Battery terminals. (Needs to be done mid-day, and not in the PWM mode). A difference of 1 volt or more between the two readings indicates that you need to connect the battery sense mode. (Probably a good idea to connect it, anyway)

If you can remember, what wire size did you use to connect the panels to the Prostar and Prostar to the batteries and what are the approximate wire lengths. That would help as well.

Ken

Peter:

The first think you need to do is put a battery charger on those batteries and fully charge them, if you haven't done so already.

The Low Voltage disconnect occurs when the battery with load on it, hits 11.4 volts.  Once it disconnects, the voltage bounces back up because the load isn't there. And if it was later in the day, they had gotten some charging from the solar panels, while having no load, so wattage was being produced should have been going into the battery.

The reconnect voltage after a LVD, is 12.6 volts, so I am not surprised that it did not reconnect.

Also, do you remember what position you set the battery selector switch in ?  1-gel, 2 sealed, or 3- flooded.

Ken

Tom:

I agree with your system sizing advice. Good stuff as usual.

The thing that bothers me is his batteries. I have been sitting here kind of hoping against hope that he comes up with a different model or color than I am familiar with.

Optima, as far as I know, only makes starting batteries and marine/RV combinations. No real deep cycles. 

My greatest fear is that Peter may have 250 amp hours of starting batteries, which in my experience would only allow him about 25 amp hours usable without harming the batteries over the long term. 

He was not specific about how long he operated the system before adding the modem.  But this scenario could explain his problems. 

If my suspicion is correct, he needs to start with a brand new set of batteries that are more appropriate for the system.  I would like to see him get a good usable solar system that works.  If he still needs to add the charger later, well sometimes they are useful.

But, I think his asking about one now is just trying to slap a band-aid on a problem which will not just go away. If the batteries are toast, the charger won’t fix it. And if the batteries are not the problem, I would look for another problem.  If his loads are right and if he brought the batteries to full charge with a charger, they should have lasted more than one night, before going flat.

Sonoma County (or most of it) is getting a good 6 hours of full sun right now. So, he should be getting 1200 watts daily, unless the system is out on the coast in the fog belt.

Ken (aka Oso)

Peter

The phrase 5 big optima batteries is meaningless. And I suspect they may be your problem.

What color are the battery tops ?  What model number are they ? And, if listed, what is the amp hour capacity of them.

Ken

Here is the Southwest Windpower page for the Whisper 500.
http://www.windenergy.com/whisper_500.htm

Both the manual and spec sheet are available just below the photos.  I am getting some errors on the manual file, but a lot of it is readable.

The transformer appears to be configurable for 24, 36, or 48 volts.

You did your amperage calculation correctly, 14.5 amps

Ken

I would go with the 220v system, it was made for situations like yours. It will keep the wire losses to a minimum. You will also save money on the wire.

It comes with a stepdown transformer. The wire from the windmill connects to the transformer, then the output of the transformer to the controller.

The one Item that is not on your equipment list is a diversion load. The diversion load is not included by the manufacterer, but some stores add it into their own package. So, you need to double check that item.

You are probably at a point where you should get someone local (either a hydro engineer or an alternative energy specialist) to take a look at your problem.

I think it is very doubtful that you will be able to produce anything near 100kw. But that is a remote judgement based solely on verbal descriptions. Someone local could take a look at the site and might come up with another opinion.

The other thing the local person could do is to help you refine your power requirement. 100kw is a ton of power. Your actual need could be much less.  "basicly working on a average sized factory around auckland which seems to be on average around 100 kw" could have you looking for something that may be twice the size of your actual needs.

LAST EDITED ON May-27-06 AT 11:55 AM (EST)

"the cross section of the lowest point of
river is 2 ft deep x 30 ft wide. and has a flow
of 5ft a second."

I am not sure whether that means that the deepest point in the 30 feet is 2 feet deep, or whether you mean that it averages 2 feet deep for the 30 foot width.  

If it averages 2 feet deep, that would be a flow of 300 cu feet a second. If 2 feet is just the deepest point, and it shallows rapidly, you may only have 100 cu feet a sec.  But the good news is that a river that size should have a stream guage on it. If you would give me the name of the river and the name of a town nearby (and state), I can look for stream guage data on it.

Another question for you. In rereading your need for the 100kw, I think you have taken the total of all loads and sized your generator based on that. I am thinking that you may get by with something smaller, which would cut down on the cost.  Do you have a current electric bill for this property, or is this something in the planning stage ? If you have a electric bill, What is the total killowatt hours billed per month ?

If you install a system for the ponds, you will need solar panels, and inverter and batteries.

Rather than investing in a lot of batteries, I would recommend that you install a grid tie inverter (no batteries) and PV panels at the house.  This system could be initally sized just to offset the pond usage of electricity. Or, you could take the money saved by not buying batteries, and put it towards additional PV panels that would help offset some of the rest of your electric bill.

I would also give some consideration to the need for running fountains 24/7. Even with fish in the ponds (unless the ponds are real small), there is no need to be running fountains 24/7.  I would look at putting timers on the pumps to shut them down late at night.

You might want to buy a Kill-A-Watt meter (about 30 bucks).  By plugging the pumps into it, you can get a real measure of just how much electricy they are using.  It would also be useful in measureing the consumption of power for other devices.

LAST EDITED ON May-26-06 AT 01:54 PM (EST)

The .pdf file are read with the Adobe acrobat reader. You can download it from
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Water wheels are better for mechanical work than generating electricty. Gearing the wheel speed up to generator speed eats a lot of power.
You may want to visit
http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/

According to their numbers a water wheel 12 feet in diameter with 6.68 cu ft a second (3000 gals/min) generates about 7.7 hp.
With the gearing losses, that would generate something around 3kw.

If the one foot drop over 100+ feet is all the head you have available, it will probably mean some type of a stream engine, rather than a turbine.

Because of the limited depth (0.5-1 foot), you will most likely have to build some type of a mill race, if you are to extract any power.

But the big question will be how much flow do you have. here is a paper that will help you detiremine that.  
http://www.absak.com/tech/headflow.pdf

I would not bother with the idea of a cover to protect your installation. It will be far easier and safer to remove the unit during the seasonal flooding.

We need to know how high above the creek the artesian well is.

Having a better description of the creek is also necessary.  From where it enters your property to where it leaves the property, what is the amount of drop ?  How fast is fast? You need to measure the speed of the current. Soem idea of the volume of water that can be used is also required.
See:
http://www.absak.com/tech/headflow.pdf
for help in making the measurements.

to calculate the volumn of water in a river as large as yours, you will need to you will need to measure the depth of the river to establish a bottom profile/ cross sectional area. Then by measuring the current speed, you can calculate the total volume per second. Here is the location of a .PDF file that will tell you how to do it.
http://www.absak.com/tech/headflow.pdf

Meanwhile, from your brief description, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to get anything close to 100kw from this source. Is that a real number or something that you just would like to have ?

For 25 degree C operation, the settings are
Bulk:  28.4  - 29.4
Float: 26.4 -26.8
Equalize: 31.0 - 32.0

You might want to refer to the chart at
http://www.independent-power.com/battery_charge_parameters.htm
for temperature compensation notes.

Oso

"I have yet to find *simple* invertors that will give me enough and pure sine wave AC power at 220 VAC/60Hz."

I think that your requirement for "Pure sine wave" power at 220V 60 hz is going to mandate the more expensive inverters.

I have seen advertisements for MSW inverters that are simple 220V 60hz inverters.  If you could use one of those to supply 80-90 percent of your power needs, and then use smaller SW inverters where the cleaner power is really needed, you might save some bucks.

Oso

"I've been told, supposedly from a reliable source, that the USA is the only country in the world that allows the use of these ovens,"

I've seen microwave ovens in almost every country I have visited. They are all over the EU. How about Canada ? They even have them in Papua New Guinea.  

You should check with your source and have him give us some countries where he believes they are outlawed.

I was "rushed in my previous response and meant to say 82 inch diameter blades, but somehow missed on "diameter".

I have never installed a Lakota 900w, but the tower instructions talk about using a 4 foot rizer of 2 inch pipe (ID 2 1/8 OD 2 3/8) They caution about being care to ream out the ID after making the cut and having not threads on the upper end.  I am not sure how tubine base/adapter sits on this.

2 and 1/2 inch (or larger)schedule 40 pipe is often used on the bigger towers. 2 inch and under they usually use either SS20 or SS40 tubing.  I believe the thread couplings are weak spots on the smaller sizes of water pipe. So, I would attempt to minimize the number of threaded couplers in your tower.  20 foot lengths of pipe would be better than 8 foot lengths.

How much do you know about guy and anchor sizing ?

Oso

The air-x towers are engineered for 14lb turbine with 45 inch blades.  You want to put a 34 pound turbine with 82 inch blades on it. Right ?

You obviously do not understand the forces involved.

Either use the Areomax tower that is designed for your the Lakota turbines. Or contact Southwest Windpower saying that you want one of their towers for use with a Lakota. I'll guarantee that it will be a whisper tower, not an air X.

By the way, I you are in the US and your county does any type of building permits, you will usually need one.  

If you do not have manufacture documentation saying that your tower is approved with a given turbine, no building permit.

Bryan:

We need a little more info before we can help you.

How many solar collectors do you have and what make and model are they.  If that info is not available, what size are they and what do they look like.

Same info required for the heat exchangers.

Also, where will you mount the solar collectors ? We need some idea of how high above the heatexchanger tank they will be,and how far hoizontally.

Oso

Dawn

You should discuss all three sites with your installer.
My biggest concern with site A would be safety.  In a worst case scenario with the wind out of the north and the tower toppling over towards the house, what would happen ?  The 17.5 kw Jacobs normally comes with a 26 foot propeller, so when you add 13 feet to the 100 foot tower, you may have a blade tip smashing down through the roof.  I would also consider the 1900 lb turbine breaking loose from the tower and bouncing at the house from 10 feet away. And lastly, when a rotating three bladed propeller hits the ground, it is not uncommon for an upper blade to snap off and get launched. A 13 foot propeller blade makes quite a missile. You need to consider these risks and determine whether they are acceptable to you. My personnal opinion would be, not within 150 feet of the house, and I would prefer 200 feet (horizontally, not measured up slope). So, on this basis alone, I would eliminate site A.
I would not apply this same standard to site B, because normally you don�t have people sleeping in the barn or shed.
For all 3 sites, you need to consider the rule of thumb that �nothing within 300 feet, comes within 30 feet of the blade tip in the lowest position�. For your 100 foot tower and a 26 foot blade, this would be 57 feet up the tower. You then �weigh� the amount of incursion, with the distance to each, and the prevailing winds to estimate the impact on production. It is as much an art as a science, so your installer can help you evaluate this.
Your Site B is not ideal with the 100 foot tower.  But if I followed your numbers correctly, a 130 foot tower at B would give you the same hub height as the 100 footer on site A.
I do not think a 130 is available from Jacobs.  A 120 is the biggest I�ve heard of. But what is the distance to the woods to the North ?  A 10 foot intrusion at 280 feet away is better than a 3 foot intrusion at 50-100 foot.  If you can �trade in� the 100 footer on a 120, this might be your best bet.  
Or, since they are in the non-prevailing wind direction, you might be able to go with the 100 footer and accept the �loss of production� with northerly winds.  Are the northerlies the same strength as the prevailing winds, or are they stronger ? There might not be an actual loss at all.
Site C.  My main concern here would be the trees at the fence line. Do they represent an incursion and how far away are they ?  Because this tree line is in the direction of the prevailing winds, it might be the largest impact of all three sites.
Oso

As far as the L-16 batteries, Trojan actually makes 3 different models of them and they make 10 other 6 volt, deep cycle, lead acid batteries. So with 13 different selections, Trojan obviously does not think that one battery is the best for all applications.  I suggest that you give them a call at 800-423-6569 and ask their opinion.

Trojan is a good dependable name in batteries and I recommend them for certain uses. But with other uses, I recommend Surrette Batteries, IBE Batteries, and GBC Batteries, just to name a few.