Ken Hall's posts

Phil:

I think that the confusion here is what are you attempting to build ?  Are you just trying to cobble together something that will provide a little power that you can play with  ?   Lets call that option a tinkering project.  Or are you trying to build a small but real energy system ?

I have been assuming that it is close to the tinkering end of the range, correct me if I am wrong on that.

If it is the tinkering project that you are just going to experiment with, and are not relaying on it for X amount of daily power, you are fairly close. I would slap the alternator on the Lister, wire up the batteries, buy an el cheapo Automotive/RV type inverter, and run the power to wherever you want to play with it.  After you have it up and running, you can see how it works. Then you can make decisions like the automotive type regulator isn’t doing the job for me. Or perhaps you might be happy with it. With this approach you won’t have a lot of money invested, and you will be making your decisions with a greater knowledge base.

If you want a real energy system, you never start at the generation end.  As John pointed out, you start at the load end.  I need to support X kilowatt hours a day. You then work backwards towards the generation, sizing everything appropriately.

Two totally different approaches.  A) I am going to build some thing, generate some power and limit my load to what ever the system can provide.  Or B), I need to support this load, and I will build the system to support it.

You mentioned a Balmar controller. It is an automotive type (or boat) regulator that is one step above what you have. It is better at handling multiple battery banks, or in some cases multiple engines/alternators. But, I would not waste my money on it.  They are a great regulator for the boats, but if the regulator that came with your alternator doesn’t do the job, odds are the Balmar will not either, and you should then using a real RE type controller.

It is hard to make any type of equipment recommendation to you, because you have given no idea of your power expectations. But based on the battery size, I don’t think you should go larger than 1500 watts on the inverter.  1200 watts continuous will be 10 amps on the AC side and something around 110 amps on the DC (depending on the exact efficiency rating of the inverter) You would only have about 2 hours of power at that rate, and that would be a bit rough on the batteries. But you could support 120 watts for 24 hours, or something between the to extremes.

You seem real stuck on that phrase of operating between 80 and 50 percent and equalizing weekly.  Your batteries will last longer if you work a little higher in the state of charge scale.  For RE systems I try to keep the Batteries above 75 percent on a daily basis. Draw down to 50% occasionally during periods of low generation.  Just shifting your use to the 60-90 percent range (65-95 even better) should prolong your battery life.

Equalizing charges are debated.  At one end of the scale, I have seen some people recommend one for every 10 cycles or once a month.  Personally, I feel that an equalizing charge is a controlled “over cooking” of the batteries and they should be infrequent and only as needed. Done too frequently, they shorten the life of your batteries. 

Trojans statement on the subject from their FAQ’s is
"When do I need to perform an equalization charge?
Equalizing should be performed when a battery is first purchased (called a freshening charge) and on a regular basis as needed. How often this might occur with your battery will vary depending on your application. You will need to monitor your battery voltage and specific gravity to determine when equalization is needed. For example, it is time to equalize if the measured specific gravity values are below manufacturer's recommended values after charging (recommended value for Trojan Deep Cycle batteries is 1.277 +/- .007 at 80o F). Equalizing is also required if the specific gravity value of any individual cell varies 30 points or more. Reduced performance can also be an indicator that equalizing is necessary. Equalization should also be performed when individual battery voltages in a battery pack range greater than 0.15 volts for 6 volt batteries or 0.30 volts for 12 volt batteries."

One could argue that the statement can support either side.  I read it as, as-needed or required. I don’t see any mention of “preventative or just in case” equalizing charges.

Ken

Swapping the two amp meter connections will correct the problem.

Ken

I am assuming that your 420ah batteries are 6 volt. (L16H or equivalent ?).  When you put 2 in series, you get 420AH at 12v. Parallel two of these sets (4 batteries total) you have 840ah at 12v. So, 50% discharge is 420ah. An 80% State of Charge is 672AH. 672ah-420ah=252ah.

I am not sure that your idea of driving the alternator off of the 24 inch flywheel is the best idea. What type of belt and pulley are you thinking of?  Personally, I would look for two pulleys, one for the alternator and one to mount on the engine shaft (or bolt to flywheel).  A diesel engine crankshaft pulley and an alternator pulley of some diesel pickup  or diesel powered equipment should give you the ratio you need with “stock” parts from a parts store or junkyard.

I am not real familiar with the Lister engine, just read some specs and seen pictures. Does it actually throttle or does it just run at the 650 rpm ? If the 650 is a set speed, I would probably use a 3:1 pulley ratio, putting the alternator at 1950 rpm and yielding something just under the 140 amps.  If 650 rpm  is an idle speed, what is the max rpm ? If it can be throttled, I might use a lower pulley ratio.

The 140+/- amps is a max output figure of the alternator based on the rpm, without regulation.  The actual amperage produced will be a factor of the battery state of charge/system voltage.  When the battery is low, you will get the 140 amps.  As the State of Charge climbs (and the battery voltage climbs) it will take fewer and few amps for the alternator to push the system voltage to 14 volts (or 14.2 depending on which regulator is on it). The regulator will back down the alternator to lower amps so the system voltage never exceeds the setpoint.  As you are attempting to charge the last few percent of the battery, it may only produce 20 amps (or what ever), despite the alternator rpm of 1950. 

You need to think of the regulator as a charge controller.  It is one, although it uses a different algorithm than a charge/load controller designed for RE service. And it, goes off-line when the engine is shut down.

So yes, running the engine longer will bring the battery to 100 percent charge.

As far as monitoring the system, an amp meter and a voltmeter will give you the data you need. You will have to learn to read and interpret what the meters are telling you. Here is a good article on that subject.
http://www.wind-sun.com/PDF_Files/battvoltandsoc.pdf

Ken

Phil:

What is the alternator pulley ratio ? If it is 2:1, that will give you 1300rpm on the alternator at the 650 engine rpm. A 3:1 ratio would be 1950 rpm.

You said you planned charging from 50 percent to 80 percent on a daily basis. That would be about 252AH daily, or 4.2 hours at a 60amp rate.

You should not have to fiddle with the throttle constantly. I would set the engine at a good rpm (to deliver the bulk amperage I wanted) and let it run until the amps start dropping off, then you can lower the engine rpm.

If I were going to hook up a charge controller, I would want to disable or remove the electronic regulator on the alternator. I would probably use a rheostat to let me control the alternator output. Many electronic regulators do not see a charge controller as a load, so they back the amps way down, leaving the controller very little (if any) amperage to charge with.

Ken

Phil:

I am not sure that there are any advantages to using a charge controller with your alternator. I would be tempted to hook the alternator to the batteries and see how it works without a controller.

The output is going to be governed first by the rpm that the diesel is running at. (Have you thought of throttle control ?) It will produce 60 amps at an alternator rpm of about 1200-1300 rpm. Secondly the alernator will regulate the amperage based on the charge state of the batteries.

4-5 hours of run time should accomplish the charge you are after. 

The setup you are trying will work, but isn't real effecient. You are running the 6hp engine to do about 1 hp worth of work.

Ken

Steve:

The Alt-E store used to carry a plastic Pelton, but apparently doesn’t any more.
The sustainable village still advertises it at $140.
http://www.sustainablevillage.com/servlet/display/products/byCat/4/40/all/

For plastic Turgo wheels or spoons, try Hartvigsen-Hydro
http://h-hydro.com/

Ken

Steve:

If you are interested in generating electricity, I recommend that you buy a complete turbine and generator. With a unit that the MFG has matched, there are very few problems.  If you are piecing together this wheel, with that set of nozzles, with that generator, there are 1000 headaches that you can run into.

If you go to the Alt-E store section, take a look at the stream engine and download the manual. It has a lot of general hydro info for measuring flow and head, along with the specific unit instructions. Good reference material, no matter what you end up buying.

If you are after something other than electricity, give us an idea of what it is, or power requirement. If you have some estimates of flow and head, that would help. Hate to send you off towards a $1,500 wheel when a less expensive one would work, or recommend the inexpensive one when the job requires something significantly more substantial.

Ken

Roger:

240V 50 hertz is the European (and other parts of the world) voltage. I would go ahead and try to sell the inverter to someone that needs it.

50 cycles would shorten the life of your pumps. If they are 1800 rpm motors on 60 cycles, they would only turn 1500 rpm on 50 cycles.  Between being overloaded at that speed, and the cooling fan turning slower, they will run hot.  Sooner or later, they will fail due to prolonged overheating.

The proper way to do this project is to calculate your loads first and then work backwards from there to get what you need.
We need the amperage ratings of each of the pump motors to do that. You should be able to pull that off of the nameplates on the pump motors. Also verify the hp and voltage of each motor, and give us the estimated running times for each.

Once the loads are known, calculations can be done for the battery size and what size inverter will work. 

To figure out how much generation you have and what you need in addition, we really need to know where you are planning on installing this system. That way we can figure out your solar insolation and average annual wind speed for that location.
Also, what is the proposed height of the tower for the air-X.

Once all of that is known, you will be able to look for the right equipment and build a workable system.

Ken

The optima blue tops only come in two sizes that I know of 55 and 75 amp hours.
They are a combination deep cycle/starting battery. They are also Absorbed Glass Mat and pricey.

You can get much better batteries for what your doing, for less money.

Also I would double check the name plate specs on your inverter. I am pretty sure its 120v. Takes 2 of them to produce 240V, if I remember correctly.

Maureen:

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. I’ve been otherwise occupied.

I have assuming separate systems (completely new pipe for the hydro) since I read your first post. My reading of your “we can move the tank…”  indicates to me, that you still have some connection between them.

The two systems need to be separate. The flow/pressure changes that a domestic water system puts on a hydro system are not beneficial for the turbine, and can be catastrophic to the piping. 400 feet of 2 inch pipe, would contain almost 2200lbs of moving water. If you change the volume rapidly, pressures really spike.

It is not even a good idea to hook the new pipe to the same tank. You have approximately 1-2 days storage for household use. It would also be the only “limited” fire protection that you have mentioned so far. If the inlet pipe to the tank gets blocked or make-up water fails for any other reason, the hydro would empty it in 10 minutes.

I would recommend installing the hydro inlet in the stream below your tanks inlet. If forced to develop more head (not very likely), I would relocate the tanks inlet to a point above the hydro inlet, to give priority to the domestic water. 
If a settling tank or basin is needed for the hydro, it would have to be much larger than the current tank.
Ken

Maureen:

Since you are building a new house, I would recommend that you work with an architect that is experienced with energy conservation (or willing to work with an expert) to minimize the power needs of the new house, regardless of the source. (wouldn’t it be nice to lower your propane bill, as well?) With good design, you can reduce the total power requirements without going Spartan.  Conservation of energy is always cheaper than generation.

Although you wish to avoid them, batteries will be the key to your electric power system. The 400 watts (or whatever comes off the hydro) will not run your hairdryer, which is probably 1200 watts. But hydro runs 24 hours a day, so you store an hours worth as 400 watthours, and that will run your hair dryer for 20 minutes.  Looking at it that way, it is 1/24 of  your daily energy generation(or 1/48th for 10 minutes). Is the hairdryer something you want/need ? You can run a 23 watt Compact florescent (giving about the same light as a 100 watt incandescent) for 8.7 HOURS, on the same power as 10 minutes of hair dryer.

The question is not about whether or not you have a hair dryer. It is learning about power equivalents and making informed choices. Making the informed decision on each and every light fixture/light bulb and every appliance, large and small. You need to eliminate “size”, and think large or small power consumption. A percolator on the propane stove is a better choice energy wise and price of energy wise than a coffee maker. So, convenience (maybe flavor) versus cost, is your trade off.  If you do go for a coffee maker, get one with a vacuum decanter or use a separate decanter or thermos. The warming plate used with the glass pot coffee maker is a non-essential power draw.

Just by adding batteries (and an inverter) to your generator system would cut down on your fuel bill. Gensets are most efficient when loaded above 50 percent.  There is a portion of the 10 hours a day, where your generator is running to supply small amounts of power. By charging batteries while the generator is already running, you could then run small loads for a number of hours, saving that number of hours of fuel burn. I would consider them, even if for some unknown reason, you decide not to do the hydro.

Moderately priced batteries (well cared for) should last 5 years or so. Top of the line batteries often go 10-15 years, and I know of some pushing 20. 
The cost of the batteries will depend on quality and sizing. A bank is typically sized at about 5 times your daily electric use. So the smaller that daily use number is, the smaller the bank and the less it will cost.

I would guess-timate that you are using 15-20kWh a day in your current setup and it is costing something near $30-35 a day. So, you are currently paying somewhere between $1.50 and 2.33 per kWh. Regardless of the unit price, $30 a day 365, is about 11,000 a year. So even if the hydro only provided half of your energy needs, that’s about $5,500 a year in savings. You will have a fairly short payback period.

I would recommend that you work towards a hydro system and diesel genset combination with batteries and an inverter. I am not sure that eliminating “diesel” is a good idea. Minimizing it to as low as reasonably achievable, yes. There are propane gensets available, but propane is generally 2.5 times more expensive than diesel, on a per kWh basis. (By the way, diesels run great on #2 stove oil.)

I am fairly certain that the electric loads can be easily dropped down below 9.6 kWh a day. If you achieve that, you could avoid gathering the additional flow.  During the 20gpm or greater flows, you could get all of your electric power off of hydro. The genset could make up the difference during low flow periods, as well as providing all of your power in an emergency. Even a cheap part that fails in the hydro system or the inverter might cause you to be without power for a number of days or possibly months. Being able to bypass them and run directly from a genset, would make a world of difference.

Here is a energy cost chart that was done by a Juneau firm. It is out of date (98), but it could be easily updated to current prices. And you might want to add a line for #2 diesel, at 140,000 BTU/gallon. And possibly Gasoline at 115,000 BTUs/gallon. (That BTU difference is major reason diesels are more efficient than gasoline generators.)

http://www.plumbandheat.com/costcomp.html

Even as is, it raises of the question of why are you heating water with propane instead of fuel oil or diesel. (There are 4.24 lbs of propane per gallon, if you are getting price per lb.) Based on the 98 prices, one would be getting 2.63 times the BTU’s per dollar with fuel oil, as compared to propane.  It may not make a big difference for 4 weeks a year, but over 52 weeks, it really does.  Propane would make sense for tankless on demand heating, but for tank type heating, no.

The statement “I really want to get away from gas and diesel, but I can manage propane shipments once a year.” does not make any sense (to me anyway). Unless you have a propane tank of gigantic proportions, you will need more than one delivery a year. Remember you will need 13 times (52/4) the quantity that you have been using. More than that if you shift more demand onto it. So with more than one delivery, does it make any difference whether it’s a “propane boat” or a “fuel oil boat” ? .

You need 1.53 gallons of propane storage for every gallon of diesel/stove oil storage to break even on BTU’s, and you are/were paying 2.63 times the price per BTU.  You may still want propane (I don’t like fuel oil flavored eggs), but I would look at having an oil system. You might also look into bulk delivery of fuel oil as compared to drums.   

By re-assessing all of your energy needs, minimizing where possible, and selecting the right source for the task at hand, you have a wonderful chance to lower all of your energy costs.

A question, if your water tank is about 300 feet and it’s the same water source, why are you talking 200 for the hydro. Are you pumping up to the tank, extra length of new piping to gain the last 100 feet, or just being conservative ?

Ken

Maureen:

I am viewing this as a separate system from the water tank you mentioned. If you are not, and the two system interact somehow (same source?), let me know.

The good news is the 200 feet of head. The less encouraging news is the low and variable flow. Hydro systems work best on fairly consistent flow rates. 
At the low end, 10 gpm is very little water, about what two garden hoses would produce. And you generally do not want to take it all. We need to leave some water in the creek for whatever lives there.

So, I think the questions are going to be how many days of a year do you have flows that are larger ? And, how much electricity are you currently using and what is its’ value ?

Assuming that you have expensive electricity (Diesel Generator?) it might be economically viable. As an example, with 30gpm flow, you could take 20 and leave 10 in the creek. With a Stream Engine, 20 gpm and 200 feet of head would produce about 400 watts or 9.6 kilowatt hours (kWh) a day.  Many off-griders live on less than that, but the important question is how significant is that for you ? 

At 12 cents a kWh (CA Grid rate), 9.6kWh is about $1.15 a day or $420 a year. If you only have the 30gpm flow about 180 days a year that would decrease to about $200 a year.   However, if your electricity is about 24 cents a kwh, you would be looking at about $ 400 a year. Again that is a halftime figure, if the 30gpm creek flows were 9 months, that would jump to about $600 a year.

Naturally, the higher that figure is, the more economically viable a system would become. 

If you would like to pursue this a little further, I would like to see how many days a year you would not be comfortable with taking 10 gpm. How many days would you take 10 gpm, how many days could you take 20 gpm, and just in case, how many days would 30 gpm be available, per year.
Quantifying how much electricity you are using and how much it is costing, to the best of your ability. If you were grid connected, it would be looking at your monthly bills to determine what is your average kWh a month is, and the cost per kWh.  Off grid it becomes more of a discussion.  Are you on a generator and what size is it?  Genset with batteries and an inverter ?  How big are they ? How many hours a day is it running and approximate loads.  How many gallons of fuel and its cost per day or week or month ?

The other question that comes to mind is how far north are you ?  Assuming that some of the low flow periods are during the long days of summer, a combination hydro/solar system might replace a larger total amount of your energy needs.

Ken

John, Thanks for posting the link.

On page 2 of the article, about halfway down the page, there is a link to a PDF file. I assume that it was written by Richard George, who they discuss in that paragraph.  The questions/criticism are well worth reading. There are many charts in the presentation, to support the position. But they can be skipped.  The text is far more important than the many charts.

He hit on many of the concerns that I have about their approach.

Ken

Hank:

You didn’t say how old this unit is.   If new, call Watt Sun now. 505-881-7567
Nor did you say what has already been tried.

But, assuming it is older, my first guess would be that he hasn’t done his maintenance.  It is supposed to be “annual, or more often…in severe weather areas”

Run the elevation out for maximum extension of the elevation actuator (telescoping tube). Is the inner tube dry and possibly oxidized ?  Spray the heck out of it with LPS 3 rust inhibitor. (It is also a lube).  Try running it back and forth a couple of times. Does it operate more freely ? If it helps, apply a second coat.  Then grease the zerk fittings up on pivoting head with a lithium based automotive grease, to complete the maintenance on the unit.   

If the lube doesn’t solve the problem, I’d call Watt Sun and talk to them.  They don’t like you disturbing some of the factory set adjustments. And if the lube didn’t help, it is probably the motor.   

Ken

Lori:

The answers the calculator gave you are correct, if you are trying to take your current home off grid and maintain your current electrical consumption. 

That is not a good approach to build a house off grid. And 1000 kWh a month is still a tremendous amount of power for an off grid system. The 17.2kw system to support the 1000kwh per month will cost a bundle, approximately $225,000.   

You have listed (in your initial post) many factors that should lower your power requirements in the new house.  If you want to estimate an approximate monthly kWh  figure now, use the room by room inventory/estimate method that James and I talked about in our earlier posts. See what that number comes up to.

A word of warning, the first number you come up with, will most likely be too low. It is generally a re-iterative process of going back through and saying how many hours will this light burn? What else electrical is in this room? What did I miss?  You massage the number to something you are comfortable with.  The inventory will also point out things to you that are an opportunity for further savings. This is area lighting, it can be a compact florescent, 13 watts instead of 100w. This refrigerator that I wanted burns to much energy, what models are more efficient ?. A new washer will save money, etc.
By putting a tubular skylight in, I can cut down on using this light during daylight hours.
 
After you firm up the size (kWh per month), then you can talk system voltage, size and number of panels, batteries, etc.  The Monthly kWh figure drives everything else.

Are you using an architect for this new house ? (If not, who did the design or where did you get the design from?)  He/she could probably help with the room by room electrical loads estimate, and they may have completed parts of one already.

Energy efficiency (or conservation) is ALWAYS cheaper than generation. Since you are designing the new house, you have the best opportunity to save (energy and money) by putting the right features in the house, selecting the right lighting and appliances, etc, before it is constructed. The less electricity the house needs, the lower the cost of your system.

Ken

James:

I hope you will be able to find some time for the board while in Costa Rica.
I think your presence as a resident staffer has added to the quality of the board.  I remember a time when there was very little, if any, staff presence.

While playing with some numbers for the roofing products, I realized that your cost per watt figures are not a real valid comparison for the unschooled.  You are dividing the panel cost by the panel wattage, regardless of the panel voltage.

The 64W, 12V Roofing laminate is listed at 5.44 a watt.
The 136W 24V is listed at 5.39 a watt. 
If you are building a 24V system and intend on using the 64W, it will cost 10.88 a watt.

Perhaps in addition, you could list a WV (watt volt) price for comparison purposes. Panel cost divided by watts times nominal volts.
I will also throw in the Sharp 170W PV panel at 4.95 a watt.

The  64W,12V becomes $0.9545 per WV
The 136W,24V becomes $0.2246 per WV.
The 170W,24V becomes $0.2063 per WV.
Simple, which one is the best value ?

(for fun, you could use VoltWatts. That way it would be a VW price) :-)

The same comparison error can creep into a watt per square foot figure.
The 64W 12V  is  5.48 w/ft2 and becomes  65.83 wv/ft2.
The 136W 24V is  6.04 w/ft2 and becomes 145.07 wv/ft2
The 170W 24V is 12.34 w/ft2 and becomes 296.13 wv/ft2
Again, it makes it real clear which panel gives the most energy density per square foot.
(I used the gross dimensions of the roof panels in this example, not exposed area. I didn’t take the time to research the overlap)

I know you guys have probably wrestled with this internally. Hope the suggestion might be of use.

Have fun in Costa Rica.

Ken

Where did you come up with Evergreen Panels ?.

Citizenre is saying that they are building a plant to manufacture PV panels for themselves. They are going to have one of the largest manufacturing plants in the US. Nothing about using Evergreen panels.

I am old enough to remember all of the Solar Hot Water Heater companies that cropped up in the late 70's-early80's selling overpriced "solar systems".What happened to them?�  Where did they all go?�  A few honest companies survived, most of the “in it for the quick bucks” companies disappeared.  This, reminds me of that situation.

I’ve also seen a lot of other “alt-energy business plans” that ended up either cheating their customers or their distributors. Many of those had enthusiastic supporters or distributors that would use phrases like "motivated selling techniques (a forward looking Solar Lobby Building effort!)"  Or the ridicule "I'll stick with my tried and true ice chest instead of this new fangled Refrigerator".
Your use of both, compounds the “smell”, and does nothing to alleviate it..
(By the way, an ice chest is darn handy during a power outage, or when going to the beach)

I said that I had no real knowledge of the company and to take it with a grain of salt.
Your leaping to its defense so quickly just raised more flags in my mind.
As did so many of the distributors calling themselves “ecopreneurs” and inviting others to sign up to become “ecopreneurs” .

So, with a little more investigation

They are not trying to be Dell Computers, their marketing Plan is AMWAY or EXCEL long distance.
You are going to have Joe Citizen trying to sell the product and telling just as many lies through his ignorance and desire to make a fortune, as some of the slime-ball salesmen that may make the jump to this plan because their rainbow vacuums or timeshares are not selling as well as they used too.

So, regardless of the actual quality of the product, they may end up doing more harm than good to the industry.

So tell the truth Don, are you an “ecopreneur” ?

Added note:
If any one doubts that this is multi-level marketing,
here is a link to Citizenre's compensation plan.
http://www.citizenre.net/extras/downloads/compensation.pdf

Jeff:

The site you listed is apparently the site of a new franchisee of the company.
The company sites appear to be
http://www.citizenre.com/web/index.php
http://renu.citizenre.com/

The concept is that you should lease rather than own. Do you lease your house or car ?

The company is NEW, their officers were named less than a year ago.  According to their website, installations will start in Sept. 2007.

If they are legitimate, I believe that their market share will be far less than they state.
 
Without any real knowledge of the company, take my comment with a grain of salt.
For some reason, I suspect that they may be more interested in selling franchises than in leasing systems.

Ken

Lori:

The first thing you need to do is start over.  Your phrase “the calculator and we use 1750 watts of electricity per month” makes NO sense.  The Calculator was looking for kilowatt-hours (kWh) per month. (watts and kilowatts are amounts of flow, watt-hours and kilowatt-hours are a total quantity used)
 
1750 kWh a month is an outlandish amount of power. Depending on what you mean by “Solar House” 1750kWh is roughly 3-7 times the power that I would expect.

If you go back to the calculator page, there is a link to a “load calculator” near the top of the page. Click on it and fill out the form for every light bulb and electrical appliance you plan on having in the new house. It might help to print hard copies and fill them out room by room. You can then combine the totals.
Also complete one for water pumping/shop/outdoor electric loads. (You need to estimate the well depth and the total quantity of water used per month)

I am assuming that the house in the Catskills, has more land than a typical city lot.
Under that assumption, I would discourage any type of roof mount system, including shingles. You probably will have snow.  Are you going up on the roof to sweep the snow off the PV panels?   Or do you just wait for it to melt before getting your generation back ?  Having a ground mounted rack system makes it safer and easier for snow removal, washing the panels, or other work on the system.

Getting the PV panels off the roof will also allow far more freedom in designing the house. You will not have to make compromises between desirable features (Aesthetic or energy related), to make allowances for roof mounted shingles or panels.

Ken

Jerry

You do not want to make any mistakes today, that will cost you in the future.

So, regardless of which pump you put in, I would suggest you go with the number 6 AWG. Yes it might add up to 50% to your wire costs, but the lower voltage drop will be worth it. It will let the pump come closer to meeting it’s published numbers. And if the line drop goes up over time (corrosion), you are going to have a little more margin to play with.

The 1.6 gpm pump has a better flow and power consumption rate per gallon. I would go with it.  It also will provide more flexibility should your water demands increase in the future.

Raising or lowering a pump 160 feet is a lot of work.  You do not want to do it more than once.

Ken

Jason:

You need to give us a description of the creek.

Describe the following for the low flow condition (summer).
How wide and deep. How fast does it flow ?  How much water would you estimate (gallons or cubic feet per minute or second)?
How much head is there (How many vertical feet from where you are thinking about setting the turbine to the high point on your property)?


Ken

Tom:

1) Running batteries with a generator may not save you any money. It is all dependent on the loads you see. If you are running the genset with moderate to heavy loads 24/7, having the batteries won’t really do anything for you.
To save money, you need to be running the genset for hours at low load (say during late night/early morning). Then the batteries can carry the loads during the low use hours and be charged up during moderate load periods. 
You also have to look at where your high load periods fall.  You may have to delay the battery charging to avoid the highest load periods. Otherwise, the charging may put you into a longer 100 percent capacity period and you could be forced to cut other loads to support the charging.  So, you might not save fuel or emissions with this option. In the worst case scenario, because of inefficiencies, you might actually increase your total fuel burn.

2) You should be looking at C20 rates, not C100.  What you are calling a 2391 AH battery is 1766 AH at the C20 rate.  So your entire bank of batteries is 3532 AH with 1766 AH usable. 1766 AH at 24V is 42.384kWh.  I think that your guy actually planned to use about 20kWh to keep the batteries above the 75% state of charge. (Ask him)

If that is the case, I would recommend against the larger batteries.  They are about 285 lbs apiece as compared to the 200 lb and they are about $100 more, each. There is a tremendous difference in trying to lift a 285 lb battery in and out of an airplane, as compared to 200 lbs. And if they are charging by the pound, it adds up to 2040lbs more for shipping.

You need at least 3 of the MX 60’s, and that is cutting corners a bit. You have 4950watts of panels or 206 amps at 24 volts. The 3 MX60s are good for 180amps or 4320watts. Personally, I would use 4 of them. I do not like the idea of losing up to 624 watts of generation at peak sun. This could be up to 2.5kwh per day.
I would also discuss this issue with your guy to find out what his logic is.

3) The remote monitoring system is a great convenience, but not a necessity. Many of the other meters etc are bought by people that do not get the monitoring system. 

4) Lightning is not real common in my area.  We consider lightning arresters to be a waste of money. How much lightning do you have ? Do you use arrestor systems on your buildings ? If not, I don’t think I would worry much about them.  If you do use protection on your buildings, then you probably want arrestors for your system.

5) I do not like roof mounts. That is the worst place for them IMHO. But sometimes, particularly in built up areas, you are forced to put them there.
Put the panels and racks on the ground. That way you can clean them easier. The cleaner they are, the more power they will produce.  If you get snow, it is real easy to sweep them off. Ground mounting also facilitates adjustable racks.  Rack adjustment could increase your output and save fuel over non-adjustable racks.
You don’t fall off the roof (easy to do on a 50plus degree metal roof) nor do you damage the roof by walking on it.

6) You are focusing on kw which is a rate of energy (or peak flow). You need to look at Kwh which is a quantity of energy. Your 14.4kw system will handle flows of 14.4kw at periods of peak flow. Your battery bank is sized based upon the quantity of electricity that is expected to be used, expressed in kwh.
As an example: lets say that there are 10 hours at night where you use an average of 2kw an hour. That is 20kWh to be supplied by your batteries.  At 24vdc that would be about 833AH.  That’s about 23 percent of the suggested battery bank.
With the 4950 watts of PV panels (and 4 MX 60s), it will take about 4.04 hours of full sun to replace the 20,000 Wh (20kWh).

This way you have eliminated 10 hours of fuel for the genset at night (probably about 20 gallons of diesel), the panels recharge the batteries during the day, and you have very little, if any, load on the genset for charging batteries.

My final comment would be what about energy conservation measures to conserve fuel, lower the peak demand and reduce overall energy consumption.  How much have you done ?  My experience is that energy conservation is always cheaper than generation.  Proper energy conservation steps could also reduce the size and cost of the PV system that you are planning. 

Hope this helps,
Ken

George:

I actually use a large spread sheet which allows me to look at pressure losses in the system, play with the wheel diameter, rpm, pipe sizes, nozzle sizes, etc.

However, you can approximate it by:
Liters/sec X head in meters X 9.81 constant X system efficiency = watts.
Or, for larger systems
cu meters/sec X head in meters X 9.81 constant X system efficiency = kilowatts.

2 gpm equals  0.12618 liters/sec.    20 feet equals 6.096 meters

0.12618  X 6.096 x 9.81 x .60  =  4.527472 watts

The 60 percent system efficiency number is the turbine efficiency times the generator efficiency times miscellaneous efficiencies for a well designed system.

Ken

120 GPH or 2 gpm at 20 ft of head is good for about 5 watts, theoretically.
Since you are burning 18 watts, you would be operating at about a 27% system efficiency. (And in reality, I don't think you would get the 5 watts, your head/flow is way undersized for most turbine wheels) 

With a more appropriate sized pump and good system design, you might get the efficiency up to about 66%, but even there, you would be burning 3kWh to get back 2kWh.

Closed loop systems will always be a net loss operation.

Running a pump to power a small hydro in a closed loop, is a terrible waste of money. You could generate more power less expensively by just buying a gas driven generator.

I would take a look around at streams in your area and see if you can't get some property owner to allow you to experiment on their property.

By the way, the pic you posted is a Turgo, not a Pelton.
 
Ken

Your 100kW installation is going to be a lot different than most of the grid ties talked about on this site. It is large enough that you need to get with the folks at Onterio Hydro (or whoever your power company is) and discuss your project, one on one.

Assuming your 100kW is 115V, thats about 870 amps. It exceeds the current capacity of most household panels and prossibly the cable drop to the property. It may even exceed the capacity of the nearest transformer when in conjunction with the other loads already on it.

There is a good possibility that their connection requirements for a 100kw project may drive your equipment selections and they might have costs that could be passed onto you.

I would chat with them as soon as possible.

Ken

Jason:

Here is a good article on the various types of wind turbines.
http://www.otherpower.com/windbasics2.html

Ken

Jason

1) How many watts does the average house use?
Wrong question. The average electrical usage of a house in the US won’t mean anything.
You need to know what a similar house near your windmill site uses, or at least what a similar house in Chile uses. You might look at your electric bill for your current house and see if they give you the kilowatt hours used and the number of days in the billing period.
Or, ask your electric company if they can give you the total kWh billed for a year ?

2) How big is the generator?
Depends on the answer to #3.

3) How many watts should the generator produce (is having a few thousand extra a good thing to do)? 
Depends on the answer to #1, AND the average annual wind speed of your site.

Most wind turbines are rated at windspeeeds of 28-32 mph. (Somewhere near 14 meters/second.)   If your site has an average annual wind speed of 5.5 m/s winds (about 12 mph), a 1 kW turbine might only produce 6.4 kWh a day.

In other words, on average, it will produce about 260 watts an hour, not the 1,000 watts it is rated for. So, you must size the wind turbine according to your expected loads and the wind speed at your site.

Having a real capability greater than your needs, is a real expensive mistake. It will drive up your costs tremendously. As a rough idea, figure the system cost at about $ 8,000 (USD) per kW installed.

You might want to spend some time reading the articles here on wind power and energy systems located under the “How-to” tab at the top of the page.

Also, Paul Gipes site has some real good info.     http://www.wind-works.org/
All of his books that I have read, are excellent. I think the store (here) has a couple of them, or you might check your library for them.

Why the Vertical Turbine ? 
I think that about 90% of the Turbines in the world are horizontal (HAWT). I know, that in California, 94% are HAWT.  I would take a hint from that.

Ken

Jan:

The 19.3 open circuit voltage bothers me. Most Solarex Panels should have a OCV of 21.1 volts. Did you test the OCV of the panels individually before installing ? It would probably be worth the effort to do it again.

A weak panel could be dragging down the whole array. Having equal voltage readings somewhere close to 21 volts is more important than hitting the exact number.

You could also put a test load directly on each panel and see what the voltage drops to.

If you have a panel that is substandard to the group, try wiring up the remaining 4 to see how the array works without the weakling.

Ken

 

With zero demand on the system, the panels should be keeping the batteries topped off. Or if you did disharge it about 20 percent, it should bring them back up full in about 3 days or so.

The C-35 does have an automatic PV night disconnect in it, when in charge control mode, so you should not need a diode.

Perhaps you should give us more details. When did you install the system, when did you first notice a problem, did you ever measure amperage between the controller and the batteries, what color of LED do you have, and is it solid or blinking (what is the blink count), do you have the optional display ?

The more info you provide, the more likely one of us is like to see something.

Ken