John B's posts

I think kW is correct. They will pay $0.65 for every kWh produced by solar panels up to 30kW in size.

It looks like a really good incentive but not the type that will attract fly-by-night operators.

By my estimates, a 30kW system would still cost around $240K ($8 per watt) to install, and I suspect that in Michigan it would not produce more than 150kWh a day in the summer and maybe half that in winter. This means we are looking at somewhere in the region of 30,000 to 50,000 kwh per year. Translated into dollars that means the system will take 7 to 12 years to pay for itself.

Now if the cost of the system can be reduced from $240K to $180K ($6 per watt) then the payback is much quicker, but presumably the State of Michigan is going to view the $0.65 per kwh you get from the utility as income and tax you on that as well. So the only loser in this scenario is the utility company that has to pay $0.65 per kwh for electricity that they could produce for less that $0.10 per kwh using some alternative atmosphere polluting substance.

BTW, the utility company in the Cayman Islands generates electricity by burning diesel, and with the price of oil going over $80 per barrel I expect that I will have to pay around $0.40 per kwh to them in my next bill. My last bill was $0.32 per kwh and they have announced that there will be a surcharge this month due to their increased cost of fuel.

Nothing but the best for you my friend.

A 300 watt generator that mounts on the eave and begins producing electricity at 3mph deserves no less.
http://web.archive.org/web/20061224002431/www.freetricity.com/productinfo.htm

Since it also produces 100 watts in 5mph winds, I think I'll bring my dog along and make him do some kissing as well.

I'll be waiting Steve, or should I call you Carl?

Don't you just love these old pictures?
http://web.archive.org/web/20060901041430/www.freetricity.com/opportunities.htm

Love that 1.5" pipe windmill. lol. But I do believe your original product offered so much more. Is this the page-5 that you were referring to earlier?
http://web.archive.org/web/20070919032602/http://www.freetricity.com/orderform.htm

Now I have to go look for some bells to wear for my day in Macy's window.

I think I see what's happening. I found a couple more websites. www.greennorth.com and www.liberationenergy.com

This one explains why so many of the sites don't know what type of windmill they are selling, how much power it produces, or what size it is.
http://liberationenergy.com/Opportunities.html

Details about the product really aren't necessary to get a successful multi-level marketing scheme up and running.

Steve, we have already established that I am the dumb one and you are the genius. Or at least comparable to the Wright brothers.

If you mean page 5 of this thread then I don't see anything explicitly stated about the output of the windmill. If you mean the freetricity.com website then you will have to tell me which page is page 5, but I didn't find anything there either.

However, I have just come across another site that might be the cause of misunderstanding between us. That site is:
http://www.windsourceco.net/how_it_works.htm

Do you notice the similarity to freetricity.com? The only difference is they are showing a much larger windmill mounted on the peak of the roof. And of course it speaks of doubling the wind speed by sloping it up the roof "a la SeaBird" that started this whole thing going.

Is WindSourceCo.net your website?

WindSourceCo.net belongs to Windsource of New York and the website is located in New York. But the website says it is copyrighted by http://www.WindSource.com

WindSource.com belongs to John Kendall with an address c/o Network Solutions in Virginia. On the website it states that Wind Source is a division of  Renewable Utilities (Singapore) Pte. Limited. The website itself is located in Canada.

http://RenewableUtilities.org belongs to John Kendall with an address in Canada. The website states that it is under construction. It's a Singapore company, but the website itself is located in California.

That's an awful lot of websites in different places and with different pictures for the same mysterious product don't you think?

Why don't you help by informing me and everyone else here exactly how many watts your windmill produces at various wind speeds?

Good catch Ray,


I was off by a factor of 10, and so are you. The day that garden-decoration windmill on your website produces 300 watts of power I promise to kiss your arse in Macy's window.


John

You are too funny for words Mr. Rays.
I was wondering why the solar panel was flat under and in the shadow of the windmill. It is used to turn the blades of the windmill around to make it look like the system is working. lol.

Let's take a few hours to mean four shall we? Now if you are claiming that the system will charge a 100 ampere hour batter in 4 hours then the system must be producing 25 amperes continuously at 12V or 3000 watts!!!!

I could be generous and say that the pictured system produces 30 watts, but it would still take 400 hours or more than 16 days to recharge a single 100AH battery.


By the time you hear back from the CEC, perhaps you will have learned enough to know that a modified sine wave inverter cannot be wired into any supply panel connected to the grid.

But let's cut to the chase here. Any reputable company or individual selling alternative energy systems will take a "1200 watt system" to mean one that continuously generates 1200 watts or close to it under ideal conditions from the alternative energy source. In this instance, wind and solar.

You sir, are offering a bunch of low-grade products cobbled together and calling it a "1200 watt system" when in truth and in fact it probably produces less than 12 watts.

What is likely to happen when someone, like many of the people that visit this forum daily, decides to invest in alternative energy and purchase one of YOUR "1200 watt systems" because of the low price? Will they be satisfied with the product? Will they encourage their friends to invest in alternative energy after such an experience?

Can you see why people who are trying to make an honest living in the alternative energy business might despise people such as yourself?

John

Perhaps your are correct and there is nothing humourous about the freetricity website. However, it is patently false and misleading, and to state that a 1200 watt system can run a central air conditioning system is bordering on crooked.
http://www.freetricity.com/whatcan.htm

I am not employed by AES, nor am I a competitor to freetricity in any respect so I have no qualms about calling a spade a spade.

From the pictures on the website I would estimate that the solar panel is a 5 or perhaps 10 watt module, and the windmill probably produces less. So all of the "sustained" energy that the system produces would amount to about 1 kilowatt hour before the battery went completely flat. It would then take about three days before the windmill and solar panel recharged the battery and you could start the cycle all over again.

They also make reference to rebates to lure customers. As a California corporation they should know full well that the California Energy Commission approves all equipment eligible for rebates. Why don't you give them a call and see why their windmill is not on this list?
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/cgi-bin/eligible_smallwind.cgi

John

Chris,

The NEC code says that neutral and ground can only be bonded in one place. This can be in either the meter box or the main panel.

This just sounds like a roundabout way of telling him not to put a ground on the new meter box.

I have a spare meter box in my garage that I just looked at and there is a lug for a ground wire connected directly to the neutral lug, and the neutral lug is on a metal bracket mounted on the metal of the meter housing. The lugs for the two live wires coming in and going out are of course mounted on insulators.

Maybe its just a local requirement, but it seems like that inspector is asking for a meter box with the neutral lug mounted on an insulator and the ground lug mounted directly onto the main frame.

Seems like a crazy requirement to me since you no longer have access to the meter box after the utility company places their seal on it, so all you have to do is make sure there is no ground on it before the utility company seals it.

I guess out of an abundance of caution he wants the meter box grounded, but he does not want neutral and ground bonded in the meter box.

Maybe there are different rules for meters on the load side of the panel box, but I don't know where my code manual is right now. Perhaps the simple solution is to ask the inspector for the name of a supplier where it can be purchased.


John

Russell,

Incorrect voltage/frequency from the genset is still my best guess, so if it isn't that then it probably is the DR1512.

I wouldn't want to encourage anything that might make the problem worse, but the only other thing that I can think to try adjusting is the DR1512 settings for the type of battery as this would cause changes in the bulk and float voltages which might just cause the charger to kick in. It looks a tad bit like the inverter thinks the batteries are fully charged and hence it doesn't need to send any current at all to them.

Charging the batteries with a 110V battery charger should be OK, but I would make absolutely certain that there is no way that the DR1512 could kick in whilst that is being done. i.e. don't risk putting 14V into a place on the inverter where 14V should be coming OUT!

I have an Outback inverter and they have a forum on their website where someone or other has probably seen most of the problems associated with their equipment. Maybe Xantrex has a similar forum that would probably be more helpful to a specific problem rather than the general purpose answers that you might get here.

John

Scott,

I believe the only true statement made by "SeaBird" dealers is that it made no noise, but that is also true of any non-existent equipment.

If you are determined to get burned on a windmill project, I suspect the scam has been supersized and is now being sold as the Mag-Wind 1100.
http://www.mag-wind.com/dist-list.php

If you do contact them, try asking for the UL number of the MG 1100 and see what they say.

John

Russell,

I don't own a DR1512 (or other Xantrex inverter/charger) but I suspect that it is working fine if the batteries are being charged by the solar panels since I believe it also acts as a charge controller in this respect.

My first guess would be that the voltage and/or frequency of the generator is outside the acceptable limits for the DR1512 and it is therefore rejecting the output from the generator as a viable input that it can use to charge batteries. If they have recently added more load to the generator then have them remove some of that load and see if that solves the problem.

It seems like a stupid question, but have they tried removing all 12V power from the DR1512 and allowing it to reset itself?

John

Don,

You might try contacting the folks in the Engineering Department at Purdue University who run the Rube Goldberg contest as it sounds like something they would be interested in. But seriously, since no device is capable of achieving 100% energy efficiency, why don't you look to see if there is some other way of more directly applying your energy source to where you would like to use it rather than suffering losses from each consecutive device you pass it through?

John

Frank,

I don't know how well plastic would hold up over a long period, but sheets similar to what you are looking for, and made of more durable polypropylene or polycarbonate are now being used as material for hurricane shutters. Hardware stores anywhere along the coast should be able to source them for you. If you live elsewhere then you can start here:
http://www.floridahurricanesystems.com/

Your numbers for square footage are off by about 50% but the issues that James raised are far more important.

Shingles are not laid end-to-end like floor tiles, instead each shingle overlaps the one below and the one to the left or right. Once all of the shingles are installed each shingle will only have 3 sq ft of exposed area reducing your roof space requirements to 1077 sq ft. Also, the area of your roof is much larger than your house since it is angled and usually overhangs all sides of the house.

Even if the useful area is limited to half, or the south facing portion, I suspect that like most of us you will find that you still have more roof space than you can afford to cover with solar rather than the other way around.

John

Paul,

The main purpose of the ground wire is to provide a path to earth for lightening strikes. It's protection for your panels and equipment, but will also serve to trip the breaker if you have a ground fault anywhere in your system.

I think most people use a #6 wire for grounding solar panels. I also think that is the minimum recommended size, but anything larger is difficult to work with and does not fit easily into the grounding lugs.
http://store.altenergystore.com/Cables-Wiring/Wiring-For-Solar-Panels/Aee-Grounding-Lugs-With-Set-Screws-Qty-1/p2343/

All you have to do is screw one of these anywhere into the many pre-drilled holes in the panel frame. It allows you to remove any one of the panels without disconnecting the ground from the rest of them.

John

Russel,

1hp should equal 745watts but, as I have come to find out, the horsepower rating on electrical motors is sometimes just a nominal sum.

I have two 1hp motors (from different manufacturers) that I run on my Outback GTFX3048 and they each consume about 1200+ watts running with a much higher starting surge.

In your case, the starting surge of your 2hp motor is greater than that of the Heart 2500 watt inverter, but it might even exceed the constant power rating as well.

More that likely the amount of current drawn by your 2hp motor will increase with load on the motor so if your are using it on a compressor or similar load it's unlikely that either the Heart 2500 or two DR1512's will work for you.

Switching to 240V will only change the current as the surge in watts will remain the same. Your best bet is to find some way of measuring the current drawn by the 2hp motor under heavy load and size an inverter based on that.

Lowell,

I don't have my NEC 2005 code book handy right now, and as far as I know in some areas of the USA local codes still take precedence. You should probably check with a local electrician in your area, but I believe the neutral and ground at the subpanel have to be kept separate. Also, I would recommend a ground rod at your subpanel for lightening protection, unless for some reason it is code prohibited.

John

Amy,

It might be worth a try to contact Unisolar to see if they might give you some "free" solar panels. I think the State of Michigan gave Unisolar quite a few concessions and incentives to build their solar panel manufacturing plant in Michigan. Here's a link to something they have done for another school in Michigan.
http://www.ovonic.com/eb_so_solar_case_b.cfm

There is no harm in asking.

John

Phil,

As Ken says, your alternator will come with a built-in regulator that will maintain a constant voltage output regardless of the rpm you have it set at, and thus the amps output will be dependent on the voltage, IE state of charge, of the battery bank that you are charging.

Standard automotive/marine alternators are not ideally suited for recharging batteries in RE systems, but you might get better advice in a yachting forum where people living on small sailboats are accustomed to using a combination of solar panels, small wind generators, and small diesel engines to generate their power. Ample Power is one company that makes the type of controller that you're thinking about, but I'm sure there are many others.
http://www.amplepower.com/

If you tell us about your complete setup then we may be able to recommend some alternatives. For example, it might be more efficient to have your lister generator started and stopped by the inverter and have a genset on it producing 120v/240v ac directly which your inverter can use to charge the batteries.

Hi Winston,

I live in the Cayman Islands and our energy costs are about the same as yours. Perhaps even a bit higher as the utility company has a "fuel factor" which they increase as the cost of fuel for them goes up without having to go to any government agency for authorization.

I'm not sure what you mean by on-grid rebates not being economically feasible. Any money that you can get for power not being used is better than nothing. My local utility does not allow grid-tie so that is not an option for me, although I have purchased an inverter with grid-tie capability.

I've done quite a bit of research and I can't find any economic reasons for going off-grid. It depends on the pattern of your power usage, but storage capacity is always expensive, so I have quite literally taken the old adage "make hay while the sun shines" and applied it to my own situation. An example of this is my pool pump only runs during peak sun hours. Now on to some of your questions.

1. Economies of scale works in solar as it does in everything else, but separate systems mean that you don't have all of your eggs in one basket. It depends on the distance and arrangement between each of your chicken houses, but unless each of your chicken houses uses exactly the same amount of energy and at exactly the same time, then one large unit directing the energy to where it is needed will probably work best. Note that one large unit could actually be several smaller units from the same manufacture combined on the same power panel.

2. Hurricanes. We received a visit from Hurricane Gilbert in September 1988 shortly after it devastated Jamaica. There were a few recorded wind gusts of around 150mph and lots of downed utility poles, but most Caymanians now consider Hurricane Gilbert "cigarette smoking" weather. In September 2004 Hurricane Ivan battered us with 150mph sustained winds and gusting over 200mph for about 20 hours. I have designed a system that does not require any penetration of my roof, and in the event of a hurricane warning the panels come down and go into the house with me. I will try to get some pictures of my system up on this site in the next few months.

3. Panels in hot weather. Again I read as much as I could on this topic but could not find any independent comparisons. Based on everything that I read, the Sanyo 200 watt panels were my preference, but I was swayed by the economics of using the Evergreen 120 watt "B" modules and so far I am extremely pleased with them.

One site that I found very helpful during my research was the California Energy Commission. They test and authorize all solar equipment used in California and you might want to look at what ratings they give to solar panels compared to what the manufacture puts on them.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/

You have a lot of problems here. Hopefully, for your sake, my calculations are incorrect but here goes.

First of all, and probably unrelated, your pumps more than likely can run at 240V. It's just a matter of rewiring the terminals. Higher voltage = lower current = smaller wire = lower cost.

1HP = 745 watts, so use 1200 watts for 1.5HP to allow for inefficiency losses and easy math. 1200 watts at 120V means your pumps draw 10amps each while they are running.

You've probably guessed by now that a 400 watt air turbine isn't going to run a 1200 watt pump, but the news on your battery isn't so good either.

Multiply the ampere hour capacity of the battery by its rated voltage to get watts. 17 x 12 is approximately 200 for easy math. Theoretically 6 batteries would run your pump for one hour, but you need to at least double that to make sure that you don't discharge your batteries more than 50 percent. About 15 would be a good size, so you would need 60 of those Zeus 12V 17AH batteries to run your pool pump for 4 hours. Now you have a problem when you try to recharge those batteries in parallel.

The Optima deep cycle marine batteries are a much better option, but check those numbers again as 850ah is one hell of a battery!

Even with perfect conditions 24 hours per day, that 400 watt air turbine is going to have some difficulty generating sufficient energy to run a pool pump for 4 or 5 hours per day.

Citizenre receiving more scrutiny.
http://news.com.com/Breaking+the+mold+in+solar+power/2100-11392_3-6161136.html

How about integrity for rent??

I'm in no position to argue with world renowned scientist #699 Dr. Don Hall of Bear Creek Research, and distributor of every miracle product known to man. However, I would like to know if his Bear Creek Energy Partners are still offering a similar deal with Hydrogen Stations?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-39%2CGGLJ%3Aen&q=%22Bear+Creek+Research%22+don+hall&btnG=Search

PS. I would like an e-motorcycle as well. Please contact me when there are available for download via the internet.

Scott,

Your fused disconnect has to be greater than your pv panel's Isc otherwise the breaker/fuse will constantly be tripping. Every PV manufacturer will have a recommended fuse size for each of their panels, and for an Isc of 7 to 8 amps that is usually 15 amp.

As for starting "smaller" with around 100KW, that should be sufficient to light up your entire neighbourhood.

John

Jeff,

The higher the voltage that you can operate at the lower your losses will be. That's why the power utilities operate their distribution lines in the kilovolt range.

Some MPPT Charge Controllers can (or so I've read) accept voltages over 100V and still bring the output back down to 48V, so its possible that you could wire your panels for even higher than 48V.

One option that I would recommend is to increase the size of wire running from the panels back to the Charge Controller. An increase from say #12 to #10 will reduce your loss. However, you will need to check that you are still code compliant with the number of cables in the conduit once the size is increased.

Another option is to place a PV Combiner Box near to the panels and run single pair of #4 or #6 or #8, depending on the total output of your panels, from the Combiner Box back to the Charge Controller.

All of this will depend on the system that you have, but the folks at AE seem to know what they are talking about, and once they know what system you have they should be able to help you.

Anything with the word "nano" is hot, including scams. Here is a good place to start research. There are enough interesting stories and links to keep someone occupied for several weeks.
http://news.com.com/Green+tech+powers+forward/2009-1008_3-6106533.html

Mike,

I live near to the ocean as well. I can't tell you anything from experience since I am waiting for my first inverter to arrive, but I decided to go with Outback Power because they sell a sealed unit.

The sealed unit delivers less power than the identical vented version, but here in the Caribbean salt air has a tendency to get into and corrode everything.

If you can get something going for 900 bucks I think we will all be seeking guidance from you. Good luck.