James Cormican's posts

these ship from florida.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Water-Heaters/Collectors-Mounts-and-System-Components/AET-Absorber-Plates/AET-4-X-10-Absorber-With-1-Header/p114/

i think they go by truck, so a sales rep would have to get a truck quote if you were interested.

james
altE staff

hello,

I think I saw the photos that were just posted on the forum.
beyond the functionality of the system, I have some serious safety concerns that i think should be addressed.

1.  the terminal blocks on the wood under the modules are not acceptable.  pv is live in sunlight and although there is a wood block in between, that wiring is not safe for outdoors.  I would strongly recommend a combiner box for putting modules in parallel.  each series string should have its own series circuit breaker or fuse.  if you have all 8 in parallel then you would likely have 8 15a din rail circuit breakers mounted in a box something like this. 

http://store.altenergystore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Electrical-Enclosures/Combiner-Boxes/Outback-FLEXware-PV8-Combiner-Box/p6693/

this box would typically be mounted outside right by the modules. all pv wires would go in, negatives tie on the bussbar and positives each go through a breaker. then you would leave with 1 positive (ideally red) 1 negative (ideally white) and one equipment grounding conductor (ideally green) from that enclosure.  you would roughly likely have 64a at 12vdc so at least 6awg would be required.  you should be able to source that in colors locally at home depot.

2.  regarding the power center setup.  i see a square d disconnect but i cant make out the unit.  being that you have more than 60a rated dc power at 12v, i think that it is incapable of breaking that cirucit.  from the tristar i dont see wires going to the battery bank.  the tristar battery output must go to the battery terminals or busbars pulled from the battery terminals.  the output of the charge controller must not be connected directly to the inverter.

3.  battery to inverter cables should be connected to the battery terminals with appropriate lugs.  the alligator clips should not be used in permanent installations as if they are bumped they have the ability to create dangerous sparks and arcs.  if a common busbar is needed to tie the battery to the inverter, an enclosure like this is generally used.  this will enable you to use battery cables with 3/8 lugs (if the inverter can accept them) that will make safer connections and allow for an appropriate disconnect.

4.  the battery and cables from it especailly are too small for the inverter.  for a 2500 w inverter at 12v size 4/0 would be appropriate.  find a deep cycle battery with threaded posts on it or even two golf cart batteries from wal-mart and use 4/0 cables with to connect batteries to each other and batteries to inverter (or dc disconnect center).

http://store.altenergystore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Electrical-Enclosures/DisconnectLoad-Enclosures/Dc/Midnite-Solar-MNDC250-Mini-250-Amp-DC-Disconnect/p2416/

or

http://store.altenergystore.com/Enclosures-Electrical-and-Safety/Electrical-Enclosures/DisconnectLoad-Enclosures/Dc/Outback-FlexWare-FW500-DC-breaker-enclosure/p5576/

before addressing functionality, i am very worried for safety and fire hazards.  good luck in the process, and please feel free to ask more questions, the forum folks would be glad to help.

james
altE staff

sounds like dying batteries, but lets get more info.

6 modules wired in parallel ?

combiner box ?

distance from array to controller/batteries ?

wire size used over that distance?

is it the prostar with the meter?

how old are the batteries?

any shading on the array?

sorry for all the questions, but that is usually how the trouble shooting goes.

cheers,

james
altE staff

good thread, here is the link to that tool i think.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Blue-Sky-Energy/m18/Charge-Controllers/Temperature-Sensors/Blue-Sky-Charge-Voltage-Calibration-Tool/p4068/

cheers,

james
altE staff

hello,

altE used to carry matrix (photowatt) modules, and we were notified that matrix was closing its operations in the usa (new mexico plant).  as far as i know, the word came from photowatt in europe.  i had a chance to visit the factory in new mexico, and the folks at matrix were very nice to me and it was interesting to see the modules being produced.  if anyone has any, they are either used or new old stock.

To Mr. Schmidt's question, from my experience in the industry the issue seems to be the cells.  for manufacturers that don't make their own cells or manufacturers that are beholden to a single or parent supplier, any change in cells means change in modules. for manufacturers that are larger and or in control of their on cell stock, competition seems to drive them to more efficient, more cost effective, less reflective often larger cells.  if you have the same nominal voltage schemes 36 cell, 54/60 cell, 72 cell, and the cells get bigger, then the frames must change, and you have new modules, and generally that makes discontinued modules of what used to be made of the old cells.

here are some of the main reasons i have seen for module changes.  I don't work for a manufacturer, but these are the things that i have seen.

 cell sizes going for 4 to 5 to 6cm have created new lines of modules that often discontinued old lines of modules. 

changes in module preferences for nominal voltage.as grid tie dominated, module preferences changed from  12 to 24 to 18v modules being dominant at higher wattages per module.  how many new 12v modules have we seen in the last year or so?  all i could come up with is sharp 130 (efficiency upgrade from 123) kyocera 135 (new larger cells force different model from 130) and evergreen es-a series (something completely different, changing from a 108 cell 18v module to 114 cell 12[ish]v nominal module)

another issue was the global market.  with european states having aggressive feed in tariffs, many manufactures could make more money selling in europe than they could here, so a few left the states.  UL listing in the states is also a limiting factor for those that want to be a player here. isofoton and matrix (photowatt) have both left the us market in the last 3 years.  unisolar left the framed module market because they decided they could compete better with laminates than they could with framed modules that cost more to produce.  there is no shortage of folks that loved the unisolar 64, (myself included), but the pull of the market eventually led to the discontinuation of unisolar framed modules.

those are some of the reasons i have seen.  it can be a bummer for folks with existing systems that want to add on, only to find their modules are gone.  i experience this phenomenon when they quit making oem parts for my old vw, and when sanyo cut the 195 ba3 without asking me if i wanted any more.  luckily i got my hands on one before they were all gone, but many folks are not as lucky and its a bummer. all you can do is try to design with that in mind, and in the worst case add new components to deal with the new modules.

anyway, good luck on your search for photowatts.


cheers,

james
altE staff

howdy,

i'll try to explain this to the best of my ability/knowledge.

what is happening is that the controller is tracking (the T in mppt) the incoming voltage.  ideally this works best when there is one I-V curve in place.  because in this example these multiple strings are hooked up to the same controller, this forces the controller to aggregate or take the mean voltage because it no longer has 1 I-V curve for the array but two.  the resulting new mpp is differnet than it would be with one array in the ideal setting.   

to the best of my understanding, this may not have a huge impact at say noon in summer, but at other times when the sun angle does matter the difference may add up to appreciable power and energy differences vs. the ideal (whole array of like and kind facing same way on one controller).

cheers,

james
altE staff

there is no correct battery bank size, but you could figure a correct load size by working backwords.  if you had a 200w pv array, you could assume (4 sun hours) that you can't support a load larger than 640wh/day, day after day without another source (like a generator).  that means you would in theory need at least a 1280wh battery bank, at absolute minimum.  if you kept the system at 12v that would be a group 31 battery or higher, or 2 golf cart batteries in series.

hope that helps,

james
altE staff

yes, you can have 1 mx60 (or fm60 or fm80) on one array and another on the array facing a different direction.  you dont have to do it, but you should see some efficiency gains. 

you can have up to 5 strings on 3 in series on those outback controllers, so you have lots of room to grow.  if you cant find 208s anymore, the 216 and the 224 are the nearest brothers for adding on to your array.

cheers,

james
altE staff

to james,

that will impact performance.  ideally it would be on two controllers as each set of modules has a different sun conditions simultaneously.

that being said, outback controllers are expensive, so barring the first solution, i think you did the best you could.

regarding the second post, you are on the right track if we are talking grid tie.  there are two practical issues though.  the only multi-mppt inverters i was aware of were the sharp sunvista (3) and the magnetek auruora (2).  both are extinct to the best of my knowledge.  the other issue is that while six might turn on an inverter, 3 in series (18v nominal) will not.

good discussion, these are fun.  i toyed with putting two arrays on a magnetek on my garage, but finances, laziness, and the thought of explaining what i had done to everyone got the best of me.

james
altE staff

the difference is that one has batteries and the other does not.  so the total system inefficiencies are greater when batteries are involved.

in line 4 that would be the amp hour rating for the battery bank at the voltage that was selected.

in 3 strings means that ideally you should have 3 series strings of batteries or fewer so as to limit connections and potential for unequal charging and discharging.  so in your example it is saying that if you needed an 821ah bank @12v, you would need each series string to have 274 ah for each of its 3 strings. 

james
altE staff

the max load is relevant to an inverter and wire sizing, not to the solar.

you need to figure out your watt-hours per day energy consumption.  this way, you can figure what you must produce.

watt hours of load / sun hours = rough estimate of solar in W

james
altE staff

you can always use an sma 700.  it will be more expensive, but it will meet your 120vac output requirement. 

james
altE staff

any battery will read higher instantaneous voltage while under charge, so in that sense, sure the air-x controller could be fooled.  so can a diversion load controller though.  it depends on a few factors, including state of charge, rate of pv charging, temperature. 

so it wont "see" solar input, but if there is input, the voltage will be rising, so the likelyhood of the turbine regulating is higher, to the best of my knowledge.

james
altE staff

so this is the distinction between inverters

plug type and hardwire

plug type inverters are generally used in smaller scale or mobile applications.  if you need to plug more devices than there are plugs, the typical solution is a power strip.  you just need to make sure that the total amount of instantaneous load you put on a plug or inverter does not exceed its ratings.

hardwire inverters are usually for permanent installations where electric code is in play.  with these inverters, both the dc and ac connections are "hard wired" in without the aid of plugs.  as such these connections are generally required to be in enclosures and wires leading in and out are required to be in conduit for safety.  to get the output from a hardwire inverter, the ac wiring must leave in conduit and either go to an outlet enclosure [such as duplex or quad box] (ideally labled that it is coming from that inverter) or to an ac load panel with the inverter acting as the "main" and dedicated circuits with breakers wired from that panel, just like in a house.

hope that helps,

james
altE staff

it depends on the turbine.  some turbines will come with controllers, (either built in) or in an enclosure.  if that is the case, follow the manufacturer's instructions.

if you choose a turbine that does not come with a controller, you will likely have to use a diversion load controller setup.  this is different than a pv controller because it does not go in between the turbine and the batteries like a solar controller does.  the turbine goes to the batteries, and the controller does as well, but not in between.  the diversion load controller closes a circuit to a diversion load when the battery hits a pre-set voltage point.  this way it prevents overcharging of batteries without removing all loads for the turbine.  removing all loads from the turbine without shorting it usually will wreck the turbine as it will spin itself to failure.

cheers,

james
altE staff

yes we will be carrying those in all likelyhood.  search the term "enphase" in the forum (top of the page, right of community tab) to see other threads regarding the new inverters.  if you go to their website they have more info and videos. 

cheers,

james
altE staff

i believe VRLA stands for

Valve Regulated Lead Acid

I think these are typically AGM or GEL type batteries.

here is an link to an example of a sealed AGM golf cart battery.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Batteries/Batteries-Sealed-Agm/8AGC2-AGM-6V-200-Amp-Hour-20-Hr-Sealed-Battery/p2310/

james
altE staff

generally standard generator backups hooked up by electricians, must have a transfer switch that will not allow power to go from the house to the grid when it (the grid) is down.  pv grid tie inverters operate under the same principle but simply cut out unless the grid is there.

so yes, in theory in daylight, you may be able to trick your pv inverter.  but also, in theory, you may send power backwards to your generator or generator inverter, which may not like that .

the real answer that serves the forum here is that legit setups exist for what your after, so no frankensteining is necessary.  the sunny island is the most familiar to me, i will put some links below.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Inverters/On-Grid-Off-Grid-Capable-Inverters/SMA-Sunny-Island-5048U-OnOff-Grid-Inverter/p6071/

http://store.altenergystore.com/mmsolar/others/SI5048U_Brochure.pdf

http://store.altenergystore.com/mmsolar/others/SI5048U_Manual.pdf

cheers,

james
altE staff

i am not familiar with the other charger you mentioned, but most ac chargers are not difficult to install if you are familiar with electrical wiring.  the smaller samlex models we have come as 3 stage and have an ammeter on the front so you can see instantaneous charge current.

cheers,

james
altE staff

no, none of the controllers/lcb will up convert, as far as i am aware.  you will either need another 130 or a pump that can run at 12v.  which pump do you have?

james
altE staff

here is a link to the manual. 

http://store.altenergystore.com/mmsolar/others/KC40T-130TM_Install_Manual.pdf

page 3 shows a diagram. I believe the 130 has M type j-box.

let us know if you need more help, specifically what voltage you are trying to achieve (nominal) and how the modules are laid out physically.

cheers,

james

">Is it always necessary to install a battery with a solar application."

merely for a point of clarification, it is not ALWAYS necessary to install a battery with a solar application.  solar water pumping, solar vent fans are examples of pv direct applications that cun run only when the sun is sufficient.

it is important to point out that for your application, batteries would absolutely be necessary, as you cant have your load off everynight and fluctuating daily based in irradiance.

ana did a great job outlining the fact finding you have to do before any design work can begin.

cheers,

james
altE staff

depends on what turbine.  most turbines will have controllers with dump loads that come with them if they are designed for battery charging.  any controls for the wind will be completely independent of the photovoltaics controller(s).

cheers,

james
altE staff

hi william,

we saw the new gear at the solar show in san diego, and i talked to some of the outback folks.  this system will be acting in many ways like the old PS1 system  that they used to offer.  I dont think it has come out quite yet, and when it does, or shortly thereafter, we should be offering it on the website.  mostly what it is to me is a nice neat package of existing stuff optimized for simpler grid tie with battery backup setups.

cheers,

james
altE staff

some other folks on the forum may be able to help you out more, but i would recommend against using pv and a battery to run an electric heater.

if its warmth you want, use solar thermal.  either solar air or radiant solar water heating, heck even passive solar.

trying to make electric heat with pv will not be efficient at all, not to mention very expensive.

cheers,

james
altE staff

hi,

multicrystalline and polycrystalline are synonyms.  there is no difference between them. 

the main difference between the two pv modules you selected is their color, size, and electrical connections on the back.

the 130 has a junction box, and the 135 has MC solarline 2 connectors on the back.

you can find more info on that here

http://videos.altenergystore.com/

and here

http://store.altenergystore.com/Books-Classes-Webinars/Webinars/AltE-Webinar-Solar-Electricity-Basics/p6053/

good luck, and feel free to ask more questions on the forum.

james
altE staff

latitude tilt angle for all year average,

winter, latitude + 15 degrees

summer latitude - 15 degrees

james
altE staff

hi thomas and all,

here is a link to an 8d battery used in RE systems for those that are able to lift it

http://store.altenergystore.com/Batteries/Batteries-Sealed-Agm/MK-8A8D-AGM-245-Ah-20-Hr-AGM-Battery/p771/

245ah @12v  they are pretty big and heavy with terminals on the same narrow side.  universal makes a version as well in sealed agm, and i am sure that other companies do as well.

james
altE staff

for optimum operation, since all the modules you mentioned are 18v nominal, 3 in series would work out best.  If it were my system, I would not add two modules, I would add another series string of three.  since you already have the sharp modules, I would make sure they were either 208, 216 or 224 variants that are the closest to what you have now for best mppt performance.   

because you controller is an mppt, it can down convert the voltage from 54 nominal to 48 nominal for you.  the issue is that in finding the maximum power point, the modules and the string sizes need to be the same.

your controller can handle 5 stings of 3 in series before it is maxed out.  since your batteries are at 48v, i am afraid that two in series may not provide sufficient voltage for charging on warmer summer days when vmp is driven down, that is why 3 in series is recommended.

cheers,

james
altE staff

hi,

what voltage is the battery bank?

 what charge controller are you using?

what is the distance from the combiner to the charge controller?

with those answers I can try to help more

cheers,
james
altE staff